Need help with tilt pump please.

[LRCXed]

Hello everyone,
I've looked around the forum all morning and don't see the answer I need. I have what I think is a 70 or so Glasspar 16' Citation w/120 Mercruiser IO. I completely restored the entire boat from the stringer up as well as rebuilding the motor and electrical system about 13 years ago. The boat didn't get used for most of those years due to work and other issues, but it's back on top of my list again.
Two weeks ago I serviced the fuel and cooling systems, and took it out for a weekend. The only issue was that the tilt system isn't lowering the outdrive. It does operate with the switch on the controls, but only when I hit the down switch. Up stopped working while I was srevicing the boat. Probably due to a connection, and I'm cleaning all that up right now.

My main concern is that I have been using ATF fluid in the pump, and reading through the books I have says to use 10-30w motor oil. Can anyone confirm what I should use while I'm servicing the pump?
I do have a bit of seepage around the lines and rear plate. I would like to rebuild the lockout switch too. I think that's where it's coming from. I found one of the O-rings for it at a local boat shop. But will have to get into it to see if I can find the second one when I see what's in there. Any advice or opinions on rebuilding that would be much appreciated.

I'm not new to forums, so I'm going to try to post a few pics next so you can see what I'm working with.

Thank you in advance for any help and/or links that will help me through this.

Larry

 

[Don S]

Re: Need help with tilt pump please.

Depends on which pump you have, some of those early pumps did use ATF. Will be able to tell for sure once you post a picture of the pump.
Even the ones that Merc used engine oil on will still work fine with ATF, I have found many old boats that are now running ATF and not Engine oil in them.

 

[LRCXed]

Re: Need help with tilt pump please.

OK thanks. Here goes the picture attempt. I'm hosting them from photobucket.

Here's the boat itself.
http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k378/LRCXed/My Glasspar/DSC_3279_zpsca17a378.jpg

 

[Don S]

Re: Need help with tilt pump please.

Need pictures of the trim pump, not the boat.

 

[LRCXed]

Re: Need help with tilt pump please.

Here's the pump (already pulled) and the switch I would like to rebuild.


BTW, the engine # I wrote in my book years ago is 3937747 if that would help identify the year.

 

[Don S]

Re: Need help with tilt pump please.

That pump will run on either with no problems. I think there were some early outboards that used that pump from trim, and they did use ATF. Merc does recommend oil, and if your system is completely empty, you can use either. I would NOT recommend mixing engine oil and ATF.

 

[LRCXed]

Re: Need help with tilt pump please.

OK thanks. I can drain the pump since I have if removed if you think the atf/oil mix would work better.
Will I need to do a full on bleed of the system with disconnecting the lines? Or will if bleed itself as I operate it up and down?

Do you have any advice I should be concerned with if I pull the lockout switch apart to re seal it?

 

[Don S]

Re: Need help with tilt pump please.

I misspelled the words in the previous post. DO NOT mix ATF and oil. I will edit the other reply.

 

[LRCXed]

Re: Need help with tilt pump please.

Thanks Don. I didn't mix anything. Just got done cleaning the insides of the pump motor.
Any particular type of ATF that works best?

I take it no one has taken apart one of these lock out switched to rebuild them.

 

[LRCXed]

Re: Need help with tilt pump please.

OK, I cleaned/rebuilt all the wiring, lockout switch, pump motor, and put in new F type ATF. The control buttons for the tilt work fine now in both directions. The problem I had in the beginning of all this is still there though. The IO goes up just fine but it won't go down. When trying to put it down the pump spins easy for a second and then sounds like it's under a load but the IO won't go down.

So I pulled the right ram (looking at it from the rear) and the IO goes up and down with only the left one on it, but the right ram just wiggles the shaft slightly and doesn't go in either direction.
So I loosened the two lines one at a time, hit the switch and both have pressure. The one that goes directly into the body of the ram instead of into the brass adapter has the most pressure.
Them I pulled the lines off and was able to push the ram in manually with no problem. I also spun the shaft and it's not bent.
Just for the fun of it I pressed the up/down button and I have good pressure coming from the pump out of the lines. My garage door has proof of that all over it. :facepalm:

Now when I pulled the ram apart I found a section that was cracked on the lip of the seal inside on the main shaft piston. But I'm not sure this would keep the ram from going in either direction, but I could be wrong. I DO want to replace the seals if they are available even if this is not the cause of the problem. Maybe someone could help me with the part #'s if their still available.
I'm still not sure of the year of the IO. The serial # is 2650333 if that helps.

http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k378/LRCXed/My%20Glasspar/DSC_3290_zpsf9a1117e.jpg

View attachment 169395

The cables and lockout switch have not been fine tuned yet, but this issue was one of the main reasons I dug into this in the first place. It's doing the same thing as before I cleaned/rebuild the wiring/system. So what ever it is hasn't changed even though things aren't fully adjusted yet. BTW, the up/down worked fine for several years until it sat. Nothing had been changed or messed with since.

Note; I know some of these ?'s to you guys that have the experience and answers/suggestions gets repetitive. I feel the same way on the motorcycle forum that I moderate. So please forgive me if this has been covered before. I could find what I needed in the search due to so many types of boats being dealt with here in this forum. Please help me figure this issue out so I don't through money in it that I don't need too.

I thank all of you for taking your time to help.

Larry

 

[LRCXed]

Re: Need help with tilt pump please.

Should I post this issue in a different thread/place?

 

[Don S]

Re: Need help with tilt pump please.

You are in the correct forum. Just be patient until someone that can answer your questions, reads it.

Type F is probably not the best ATF recommended, Dexron is what was used by others using that and any other type pump with ATF. Even the one pump used by Mercruiser using ATF used Dexron.

As far as the trim cylinder, perhaps leaking check balls. Notice one of the springs is twisted.

 

[LRCXed]

Re: Need help with tilt pump please.

Thanks Don. I had asked about the ATF, so I just picked one. I'll flush it out again and use Dexron since I have it apart again.

With your noticing the spring I pulled the check ball/piston apart. Only 1 of the four fell out easily. I had to push the other 3 out and they did have a bit of gunk on them. What I did notice though was that the one under the end washer had the brass insert on the wrong side of the spring. The ball was all the way up inside the spring. I'll clean all these parts in my ultra sonic cleaner and reassemble them correctly and see if it makes a difference. Thanks for the quick reply. I'll let you know how it goes tomorrow. Today is play day and I'm taking my son to a miniature golf park.

I have a question that a friend of mine brought up. Could it be the valve body in the bottom of the pump having a stuck check valve?

Oops, almost forgot the pictures.

 

[LRCXed]

Re: Need help with tilt pump please.

OK, the update is that I did get the ram working again after cleaning it out and changing the atf to Dexron. The down side though is that after cleaning the second ram, it was acting just like the first one did. It went out but wouldn't go in. I did notice that one of the shim washers was missing at the end of the piston. And that the nut had not been tightened up all the way. Probably to compensate for the missing space. I went through the ram twice with no luck. So I switched sides with the rams to ensure it wasn't the pump and the same ram acted up. Calling around I found a used ram for $40 and everything is good now. Up and down the way it should.

My next issue is to adjust the shift cable again so I can smooth out the shift point and get the interrupt switch adjusted correctly. That's going to be this mornings task.

But I have another question. I bought a new style Quicksilver prop with the replaceable center hub. When I install it the way the directions say to, the prop is held out to far and there is a gap between the housing and the back of the prop. The nut doesn't go on all the way either. Without the brass collar/spacer from the kit it sits properly where it should. The back of the prop fits on the OEM thrust spacers recessed groove this way. My question is weather or not this is the intended way the new style props are to be installed or did they sell me the wrong prop/kit?
The original prop is a 14X19. The one they sold me is a 14.5x19. And the box says it's for a MerCruiser Alpha one/Bravo one. Part # QA1916X. The hub kit is part # 835257Q 1.
Does anyone have information on weather this is correct for my out drive? And where can I go to confirm what I SHOULD have on this IO. The out drive serial # is 2650333 if that helps. And according to the info in my book this is a 1970 boat.

 

[Don S]

Re: Need help with tilt pump please.

Best to post your prop question over in the prop forum. http://forums.iboats.com/forumdisplay.php?f=35

 

[LRCXed]

Re: Need help with tilt pump please.

Thanks Don.