New to boating, problems with starting,idle

[Kalian]

Hi folks,<br />I'm new to boating as well as this forum. I have a few problems I hope you can help me with. I recently bought an 18' 1990 bayliner 1800 capri bowrider with a force 90 2 stroke outboard motor.<br /> #1 To begin with, it won't start on it's own for the first start of the day. The choke won't work. I tried moving the choke back and forth manualy and there dosen't seem to be any resistance. I have had my brother hold the choke in all the way while I tried to start it and it just wont start! The only way to start it is with starter fluid. After the first start of the day I can turn it off and restart without more starter fluid.<br /> #2 It stalls in idle, and stalls at low speeds. This is a big problem, because it makes docking that much more dificult for me as a newbie with no experience to start with. <br /> #3 It doesn't plane till I'm almost full throtle. It tops out around 30mph, but I really don't care about the speed. I just want to be able to cruise around while sitting down. I get awfully tired standing up all day in the boat because I can't see over the bow!<br /> A couple other things, it doesn't have a tach, and I can't tell if the bilge pump works or not. I've turned it on briefly but I don't hear anything. I really need to know if it works or not.<br /> I pulled the plugs and the top one had maybe 2 milimeters diameter of carbon in the center of the plug. The middle plug had a little bit more, and the bottom one was almost covered. All 3 were oily, as if they had been completely submerged in oil. Is this normal? (the carbon may have just been some kind of gunk, couldn't really tell)<br /> The exhaust is bad, especialy at low speeds and it smells like gas (kind of a weak smell, not very strong) when it's out of water.<br /> I don't really care about the choke, I can either have my son, my wife or whoever else is on the boat operate the choke manualy, but I really need to fix the starting problem and the idle/low speed stalling problem.<br /> Any sugestions?<br />Thanks in advance.<br /> Oh, another thing. I have no history on the maintenence of this thing, and I have no manual. Could someone please tell me the maintenence items for this boat and engine?<br /> And whats the difference between outboard and outdrive, or are they both the same thing? <br /> How do I know if my engine is the ldrive or the regular force 90?<br /> Sorry for so many questions!

 

[eurolarva]

Re: New to boating, problems with starting,idle

Hello Kalian and welcome to iboats. First thing is the choke is engaged by pushing the key in while it is in the run position. Hold it in and turn the key to the start position. When motor starts release the key.<br /><br />I would start with rebuilding the fuel pump and all three of your carbs. Replace all three plugs and start again from there. Oily residue on the plugs is normal. <br /><br />The first thing you should do is buy one of these<br /> FORCE MANUAL <br />It also would not hurt to get a compression test done on the motor to verify nothing major is wrong before you start dumping money into it.

 

[roscoe]

Re: New to boating, problems with starting,idle

Outboard hangs off the back of the boat.<br />L - Drive is similar to an inboard, with a drive unit sticking out of the transom.<br /><br />Get a repair manual.<br />Change the water pump. If it fails and the motor over heats, your motor is toast.<br /><br />Replace the sparkplugs with new ones.<br /><br />Sounds like you need to do a thorough decarb of the motor too (carbon removal) easier than it sounds.<br /><br />Does motor have power trim?<br />Try lowering the motor trim to a nearly vertical position, it should help with planing.<br /><br />To start:<br />make sure gas tank vent is open<br />pump up the gas line bulb till firm<br />disengage the shifter and push the throttle control arm forward to near full throttle (I think you pull out on throttle handle and push forward on your model)<br /><br />push in key to activate the choke and turn to start position<br />release key when it begins to start.<br />don't use choke for more than 5-8 seconds or you may flood it.<br />when the engine fires, be ready to pull the throttle back to the idle position.<br /><br />Where are you located? Maybe one of uor fine iboats members could be of assistance?<br /><br />Feel free to ask lots of questions, or use the search function to scan the forums for info on terms you are not familiar with.<br /><br />Hopefully, you can get everything working and the boat running well for under $150.

 

[Kalian]

Re: New to boating, problems with starting,idle

Thanks for the reply fellas. As far as the choke goes, It's definetly broken. I have been pushing the key in and turning with the cowling off, and the choke doesn't move. My brother was looking at it while I tried to choke and nothing happened.I should have mentioned that in the 1'st post. I also have been priming it till the bulb is firm. <br /> I've tried to get it in for a check up, but the earliest opening I can find is August 1'st. Thanks for the advice about the compression check. Once I get the manual,(thanks for that too) I would have been doing everything I could to that motor, and possibly wasting a lot of time and money.<br /> As far as the trim, I just have one switch that moves the motor up and down and it's not even labelled. After I get the boat in the water I drop it all the way down. I tried bringing it up a little slowly while I was running but it doesn't seem to make a difference so I just run with it all the way down.<br /> I'll definetly change the plugs and do the decarb thing, but I'll wait on the carberator and water pump till after the compression test. Can I do the compression test myself or does it take expensive equipment? I don't know or trust anybody here where I live, just moved in!<br />By the way, I'm from Chico, California.<br />Would love any input.<br />Oh, almost forgot. Do you think I should do the decarb at the marina? Being California, just wondering if everyone will freak out and call the epa, spca, bga and God knows what else when they see the smoke!

 

[eurolarva]

Re: New to boating, problems with starting,idle

Sears sells a compression tester for about 30 bucks. It is best to test on a warmed up engine. Do it with lower unit in a test tank or on muffs. When motor is heated up remove all the spark plugs and ground the tips of the plugs and with the plug wires attached to the plugs. Crank motor a couple of times with compression tester in each one of the spark plug holes and write down the numbers then post them here.

 

[Kalian]

Re: New to boating, problems with starting,idle

Thanks Eurolarva, I checked sears, they didn't have one. (I live in a small country town.) So I picked one up at wallmart for 22 bucks. The instructions say (in addition to disabling the ignition) that I should open the choke wide open and the same with the throtle. These instructions were written with an auto in mind, not a boat, but since I know very little about either, I have to ask.<br />Do I open the choke?<br />Do I open the throttle?<br />Whats the best way to ground the plugs? <br />(I realize grounding the plugs is in place of disabling the ignition, sounds like less hassle anyway!)<br /> Gotta take the kids to the park,(promised them early this morning,) I'll be back in 3 or 4 hours. Thanks for all the help!

 

[roscoe]

Re: New to boating, problems with starting,idle

You can flip the kill switch at the helm to disable the ignition.<br /><br />Yes, all 3 plugs removed, and full throttle.<br /><br />Is the motor also a 1990 model?<br />1990 was a weird model crossover year for your motor. It may not have a conventional choke system. It may have a fuel enrichment solenoid that pumps fuel directly into the intake manifold behind the carb. This primer valve is located just below the carb on the port side. It has a hose connecting it to the bottom of the float bowl and another hose going to the manifold. With this system, the butterfly does not move when the choke is actuated. If you provide a serial number, I may be able to tell you.

 

[Kalian]

Re: New to boating, problems with starting,idle

First of all, I stayed up all night last night working on another project, and MAN, I feel like crap! Hard to face the fact I'm not a kid anymore. <br /> Anyway, I checked the motor, and found the model and serial#'s on the mounting plate on the transom. Here they are.<br />Model 906x90c<br />Serial 018901<br /> Thats embararsing Roscoe, I never thought of the kill switch!<br />I just noticed the "CFI" and "cross fuel induction" on the cowling. Does that change anything regarding the compresion check or decarbonizing?<br /><br /> Edit: Forgot to mention I was going to use roscoes method for decarb.<br /><br /> I bought the seafoam and plugs yesterday, I forgot to get aerosal so I guess I'll pour it in a squirt bottle before I decarb it.<br /><br /> So here's the plan. I'll take the boat to the lake, as I really don't want to mess with the muffs and all right now lol, that would prolly be good for another 6 posts!<br /> I'll tie up at the dock and let the engine warm up. After it's warm, turn it off, pull the kill switch, open the throttle and the choke, pull all 3 plugs and do the compression test. If I get decent #'s I'll then spray the decarb, put the new plugs in and fire it back up. I'm assuming decent #'s would be 135 psi or higher, less than 15% or 20% difference between the readings?<br /><br />P.S. the nearest big boat store is in Redding, a good hour and a half away from here. I plan on getting the manual in Redding tuesday or wednesday.<br />Thanks for all the help!

 

[Realgun]

Re: New to boating, problems with starting,idle

Heres what I would do.<br />1. Check the choke at switch and at the unit on the motor with a voltmeter to determine if its getting electricty or not.<br />2.Replace spark plugs<br />3. Since you know it has carbon (as indicated by the plugs) I would decarbon the boat BEFORE you do a compression check.<br />4.Compression check. Anything over 100 is reason to celebrate and if all are within 10 Lbs of each other better yet!<br />5. Motor should be all the way down then as the boats starts to rise, at this point should be flat with water, slowly raise the trim switch till the boat starts to bounce up and down or porposing. Then lower the trim down a click or two to get rid of the porposing and you should be able to sit down and be about 30-35 Mph depending on prop altitude boat condition etc.<br />6. Since you do not know the condition I would test the overtemp alarm.<br />7 Replace the water pump or impeller not hard just heed the manual.<br />8. Replace thermostat and keep old for Just in case.<br />9. Replace primer bulb if old or unknown agae.<br />10. Replace fuel filter or add another inline.<br />11. Rebuild carbs if you are not getting WOT of 5000 rpm. Not sure what your Max rpm is on that motor. You need at least a temorary tach. This will also tell you in your boat and prop are the right combination.<br /><br />12. If you need help we are here and you can also do a search just to see what others have had that you have now.

 

[roscoe]

Re: New to boating, problems with starting,idle

Yep, the motor is also a 1990 model.<br /><br />According to your serial number and my manual, you "should" have a fuel enrichment valve, not a conventional choke.<br /><br />Do a compression check both before and after the decarb, hopefully it goes up some.<br /><br />Compression was only 140-150 when it was new.<br />Anything over 110 is ok, over 120 is better.<br />One cylinder will be lower than the other two, they came that way from the factory.<br /><br />The "cfi" means nothing of importance, just an advertising label.<br /><br />Might want to order up a fuel pump rebuild kit from the Mercury dealer too. ($12) When they go bad (with age) they can cause lots of strange problems. There are two types of pumps, one is square, the other has two round protrusions.

 

[Kalian]

Re: New to boating, problems with starting,idle

Thanks realgun, I'm getting my manual today or tomorow, and then I'll tackle that list!<br /> Roscoe, If I remember right, it says push to choke on the ignition. Is it possible I might have a regular choke or did all 1990's come the fuel enrichment valve?<br /> I did manage to get out to the lake yesterday, and of course I forgot something. I didn't have anything to ground the plugs with. So I decarbed the motor, {sprayed seafoam in the carb and cylinders and ran it in neutral. There was mostly blue or grey smoke, I didn't notice any black smoke. I'll try it again and this time drive it around instead of reving it in neutral.<br /> After the decarbing I took out the old plugs and put in the new ones. It started right up, and doesn't seem to stall in nuetral anymore, although I didn't drive it so don't know about the stalling at low speeds part yet.<br /> PS, how long can I let the gas pre-mix sit and still use it? Does it go bad fast? (it's in the 100's here in northern Ca.)

 

[roscoe]

Re: New to boating, problems with starting,idle

Gas should easily be good for a month.<br />Last year I used a tank of 1.5 years old gas that had been treated with stabil.<br /><br />When decarbing in the lake, all the black gunk will come out the exhaust under water, you won't see it.<br /><br />Decarb the poop out of it, can't hurt anything.<br />Then pour the rest of your SeaFoam into the gas tank.<br /><br />The parts book shows that some models had a choke, others had fuel enrichment valve, for 1990-1992<br /><br />Look for solenoid actuated valve with 2 hoses.<br />Choke had solenoid connected to choke via linkage.

 

[Kalian]

Re: New to boating, problems with starting,idle

Thanks Roscoe,<br />This thread is getting long eh? <br />I got my manual today, I also got some muffs. I didn't want to use the muffs because I was worried about either not getting enough water through, or getting too much water through and ruining something. But the muffs are much more convenient than traillering down to the lake, so I bought em.<br /> I hate to beat this to death, but regarding the compression. I hate to sound like an idiot, but the manual says to "disable the ignition using the lanyard (kill switch)". I tried that and when I turned the key nothing happens. The engine won't crank. Am I supposed to be using some other means (other than the key)to crank the engine? I just don't get it. Is my kill switch killing more than it's suposed to? It also mentions grounding the spark plugs if I don't have a lanyard. I guess I'll try this instead. What is a good location on the engine for grounding? Or should I just ground it to the - cable on the battery?<br />Thanks in advance!

 

[imported_bjs]

Re: New to boating, problems with starting,idle

all the advice is good but make sure the carbs are being opened all the way.sounds like you might have water in the gas.owned 2 strokes all my life if they dont have compression they wont srart at all.i dont know what all this de carb stuff is maybe i need some info.never heard of it.me too dont trust anyone to work on my boat the tech in kansas arnt very good.

 

[Kalian]

Re: New to boating, problems with starting,idle

Thanks racer, but I was talking about a compression test. The boat runs, I was just trying to improve the hole shot, and the low speed and idle stalling. I bought the boat recently and know nothing about boats or engines, so I was trying to do a compression test before I started sinking money into this and that on the motor.

 

[eurolarva]

Re: New to boating, problems with starting,idle

You can use the battery negative post as your ground or you can partially unscrew a screw going into your motor and attach a wire to that and use it as your ground. I use wire wrapped around the threads of the spark plug and tie that to ground. Plugs need to be grounded during compression test so you dont fry the ignition<br /><br />Also your manual tells you to do compression test WOT which isnt necessary. If you choose to do it that way you will have to run a short across the neutral interlock switch.

 

[Kalian]

Re: New to boating, problems with starting,idle

Thanks Eurolarva, it's all clear now. I'll post the #'s after I run the test.

 

[roscoe]

Re: New to boating, problems with starting,idle

racer 15, a decarb is recommended by all 2 stroke engine manufacturers. It removes carbon buildup from the pistons and rings. Carbon buildup will stick rings and cause loss of compression. It should be done as a maintenance it every year, or 100 years of use, whatever the manufacturer recommends. <br />Each manufacturer makes a product to use, Ring Free, Engine Tuner, Power Tune, etc. Many people use a product called SeaFoam and its aerosol version, DeepCreep.<br /><br />Here is a "how to" from the FAQ forum.<br /><br />Decarbing is a 2 part process. The first part is preventative, done by using a fuel additive to prevent carbon build up. SeaFoam is one such fuel additive and can be found at most auto parts stores. It also works as a fuel system cleaner and should be used as a preventative maintenance procedure.<br /><br />If Your intent is to REMOVE the existing carbon buildup from the cylinders, heads, and rings, a spray decarb solvent product, such as SeaFoam Deep Creep, Power Tune, or Ring Free, is needed to do the decarb process. Free moving rings are what seals your cylinders and gives you compression. Compressed and stuck rings means loss of compression, broken rings, damaged pistons and heads, and eventually, engine failure.<br /><br />Run engine at fast idle, with engine running and warm, slowly spray liberal amount into each carb. Its gonna smoke up the place. <br />Spray for a couple minutes, now spray a larger amount into the carb(s) until engine chokes out and stops.<br /><br />Remove spark plugs and spray the decarb product liberally into each cylinder, install the spark plugs, let it soak for an hour or more. <br /><br />Start the engine and run at medium throttle, or if at the lake, run it at full throttle. It won't hurt to spray some more through the carbs. Run it for atleast 10 minutes to flush the crud out of your engine. Now remove and clean, or replace the spark plugs. <br /><br />It works well to do the spraying, the night before you go to the lake. This way you can let it soak overnight, and run at full throttle at the lake.<br /><br />Don't do this in front of the garage door or the house, unless you want it covered with greasy black crud.