NewGuy PROP???

Boilermaker

Petty Officer 1st Class
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Sep 28, 2003
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388
I have just reconditioned my old 1971 18ft Deep Modified Vee>>>with a Johnson 115 (1978). The original prop was a 13x19, but it just spun on the hub when I put the power to it. OMC dealer sold me a new Alum. 14x19>>( he said the new design prop needs wider diameter). Well the boat does have a nice topend, but seems to be a lot slower out of the hole then I remembered, and it seems to "squat" a bit more then I remember, until its on plane. I installed a "STINGRAY" plate in hopes of improving the hole shot>>>no real help, but I do need to trim much higher now. I installed a tach on the boat and I am topping out around 4800RPM> with the trim & tilt at the top of its trim setting. The dealer told me the stingray is hurting my performance by pushing the nose down>>>hence the need to trim so high. Whats the common thought here>>loose the Stingray???prop smaller??? I really don't want to losse the top end, but would like more midrange and low speed throttle responce. ANY HELP is greatly appreciated>>>THANKS
 

walleyehed

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Jun 29, 2003
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6,767
Re: NewGuy PROP???

I can't help but step on this one.......... :D <br /> #1, make sure your tilt pin is in the hole nearest the transom.<br /> #2, the 14X19 with the "longer" blade design was fitted to the "loopers" of newer vintage. I've been through this with extensive prop testing on an 18' deep-vee starcraft, with a 97' 115 Johnson.<br /> #3, your engine is rated at the crank, and anything newer than 85', is rated at the prop shaft-your engine should like a 13.25X17, and maybe even a 15" pitch, depending on engine hiegth above the transom.<br /> #4, The goody....IF your stingray is causing a nose-down situation, you are trimmed too far down, (in). The stingray will actualy let you trim farther out, than without it.<br /> #5, I'm very fond of the stingray, but I would recommend, and welcome comments from 2 guys that have taught me a bunch about this.<br /> I CAN tell you, there is NO perfect magical setting but some time and alittle work, taking notes here, of course, will put you on track better than most dealers can do...... :) <br /><br /> Dhadley, and NautiJohn is who I would ask for help from-JB is good too. Lots of good help here, just ask! :) :) :)
 

Boilermaker

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Sep 28, 2003
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388
Re: NewGuy PROP???

I don't meen to contradict when I am asking for advice (I'm sure you have more knowledge on this then I do)>>>but it always ran great with the old 13 x 19>>>I am a rather large guy 6'2;" 250lbs and could water ski on one ski from a stop with this old setup>>>now the old prop is shot>>>and the new one is in the recommended (OMC 1978 book) RPM range of 4500 to 5500.<br />As far as the Stingray>>> I have to have the trim up almost to where it will start to vent to see the 4800 rpm>> seems as though its fighting the bow rise.<br /> Maybe one of the aftermarket props would be more inline with the older prop>>>or how about one of the newer "vented" props to help with the hole shot??? My dealer is lending me a used 14x17 to see if it helps, I hope to try it tomarrow.<br />Thanks again
 

MurdockJr

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
May 14, 2003
Messages
97
Re: NewGuy PROP???

Boilermaker you need to run at the top of the rpm range to keep the motor happy. Lose the Stingray and get a smaller prop. The smaller prop will give you better holeshot and midrange. Also by getting the rpm's up you probably won't lose much top end if any. :) :)
 

catfish1

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 23, 2003
Messages
683
Re: NewGuy PROP???

you may gain a few hundred rpms by taking the foil off, but what your saying is you have too much bow rise without it?<br />do a search on smart tabs. you will get a better hole shot, with little to no bow rise. you may also pick up top end speed (2-4 mph). check it out! ;)
 

rodbolt

Supreme Mariner
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Sep 1, 2003
Messages
20,066
Re: NewGuy PROP???

Hello<br /> why not just rehub the original prop? it costs about 90 dollars here to rework and rehub. 14x19 seems a bit large for what you are pushing.I think something on the order of a 13 x 17 would be closer. there were several 17 pitch props made some with 13.75 diameter some 13.375 and so on. I think the late style 14x 19 is just to much wheel. I read you just installed a tach. do you know for sure the RPM at WOT with the old prop. never take someones word that it did it unless you saw it. <br /> good luck and keep us posted.
 

Boilermaker

Petty Officer 1st Class
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Sep 28, 2003
Messages
388
Re: NewGuy PROP???

OK>>>let me clarify this a bit.<br />This boat was my Dads boat>>he got it new in 1971 and repowered it in 1978>the only thing he had on the dash was a fuel gauge & OMC tilt/trim meter. The engine only saw 2 seasons of very limited use> a little water sking, and some trolling in Long Island Sound. I don't think it has 100hrs on it! I have no idea what RPM it used to turn with the original prop> I DO remember that it had a faster holeshot, but it is by no means a DOG now!!<br />It just seems to me that the stern squats more before planing now then it did in the "old days".<br />As far as what R's it turned then>>>I don't know because we didn't have a tach then>>>but by sound, I would say its about the same. Heck, for all I know, it could be the wood sub-structure is water logged and alot heavier now. THIS boat sat in his yard for over 20 years!!! I did have to replace the transome from rot. Anyway>>> as for re-hubbing the original prop, I just figured that a new aluminium prop would be easier. The old "Elephant Ear" prop was NOT cupped, and the new OMC alum. props are. They also have a narrower profile, and more rake>>>thats why the dealer said they went with a wider diameter>>>keeps the load area the same. So now I am waiting for a chance to try the 17pitch to see if that is an improvment.>>><br /> I'M SORRY this is so LONG!!! <br />Now, if the 14x17 alum. prop works better, would going to a STAINLESS be even better??? or just more durable??? Should I stick with OMC prop, or can you recommend an aftermarket prop that is BETTER (within reason in price compared to OMC)<br /><br />I also would like someone to verify the proper use of the trim/tilt. Should you start from a stop with the tilt all the way down (pulled in towards the transome)??? and feed it up as you excelarate??? and how high is good??? My boat seems to like it high (trimmed out), at least since I installed the Stingray. It picks up abt 300 rpm from its middle setting to its top (and also noticably more speed). Again, sorry this is so long, and all answers are GREATLY appreciated!!!
 

walleyehed

Admiral
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Jun 29, 2003
Messages
6,767
Re: NewGuy PROP???

You said you rebuilt the boat as well.......does it have more weight torwards the bow now???????<br /> 14X19 is a good choice for 1998-up loopers, in the 115-135hp range.<br /> You may also have a prop that is a stearn-lifter, the opposite of what you need.<br /> Do you know or have the P/N of the old prop, and had it ever been "worked"?<br /> As far as 4800RPM goes, thats going to load that eng., and make it's lifespan short....I can tell you from experience, you will be MUCH better off at 5400-5600rpm.
 

walleyehed

Admiral
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Jun 29, 2003
Messages
6,767
Re: NewGuy PROP???

You are correct on the trim, and it sounds like it's doing what it should.<br /> After you try the 17", let us know what you got and we can better decide which direction you should go! :) :)
 

Boilermaker

Petty Officer 1st Class
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Sep 28, 2003
Messages
388
Re: NewGuy PROP???

No new weight up front! Just rebuilt transome. Also new seating,Nautalux flooring, and instruments/radio equipment, rod holders ect...<br /> I hope to be on the water Tuesday evening>>>I have installed the 14x17" and I think I will pull the stingray! Will post results.
 

Jdeagro

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Jul 30, 2003
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1,682
Re: NewGuy PROP???

Boilermaker;<br />Since you are new to the site let me help you qualify everything I say by letting you know that I am from Nauticus, Inc. the manufacturer of Smart Tabs (Trim Tabs). Our experience and development work with trim tabs is concentrated on boats in you size range. <br /><br />Let's look at your boat as the individual it is and separate the performance issues, and address them one at a time.<br /><br />Let's assume all things are equal, and there are no mounting problems, or particular load balance issues, or defects in hull design then the prop situation becomes easier. Changing the pitch of the prop is like changing gears in a car. Lower pitch helps acceleration (or load pulling) like first gear in a car, but the top end suffers. The lower pitch will also make the engine turn more RPMs per MPH which will increase fuel use and reduce the life of the engine. As far as life is concerned, it is unlikely that you will ever use the boat enough to ware out the engine. Rebuilding is more common because of lack of use. Mercury Marine studies show that the average boater uses his boar less than 60 hours per year. In car terms at an average speed of 25 MPH that's 1500 miles. So don't worry about engine life.<br /><br />More pitch gives you more top speed (within reason) but you loose the low end pulling power or planning ability.<br /><br />Included in this prop choice may be the stainless or aluminum cupped props which are designed to provide other characteristics such as lift and holding power in high speed turns.<br /><br />Your issues are more general, you simply want a larger window of effective use. Better acceleration and towing capability and a bit more top end. <br /><br />The hydrofoil adds more surface area which provides more lift. This additional lift may be noticeable or not depending on the size of the hydrofoil and the weight / balance of your boat. In many cases the foil effect is noticeable, in other (like you indicated) it may be less effective.<br /><br />What you need to understand is that for low end performance (separate from gear changes / props) you need additional / adjustable surface area that is proportionate to your boat size. And, as the boat increases in speed, gets on plane, the lift is less necessary since the hull is now supporting the load. The problem with any fixed planning device is that at speeds ( the faster the more influence) they produce increasingly more lift. This drives the nose of the boat down which creates a plowing issue, and nose heavy turns. If you have electric tilt trim on the motor, then you tilt the motor out to push down on the transom (which at this point has too much lift) and raise the bow. Now the prop is going through the water at a downward angle which reduces it's best bite. The prop should run perpendicular to the surface of the water for it's best performance. When the prop is trying to overcome the extra lift of the hydrofoil you end up with a compromise between prop efficiency and boat attitude.<br /><br />You can also create a port to starboard balance issue when the concentration of lift (hydrofoil) is in the center of the boat i.e.; a teeter totter or a balancing act. The boat is also likely to lay over hard in turns and blow out the prop. <br /><br />The other common problem with stern heavy boats is porpoising at cruising speeds. Since the center of balance is in the last 30% of the boat it is easy for the front to get pushed up by the least wave, and what goes up must come down. What is required to control this is more bow pressure or stern lift. Sometimes this can be controlled by the electric motor trim (trim the motor down to lift the stern up and bow down. This however is once again using the motor and prop to do something other that propel - not efficient. Hydrofoils can help eliminate the problem but usually provide excess bow pressure.<br /><br />Trim tabs ( helm controlled - electric or hydraulic) can be deployed to give the boat extra lift at slow speeds (reduced bow rise, faster acceleration, and slower minimum planning speeds), then adjusted up at high speeds, without using the prop energy. Since they can be adjusted up at cruising speeds, the top end performance is generally not effected. The porpoising can be eliminated with a slight deployment of the tabs at cruising speeds.<br /><br />Smart Tabs will do all of the above even more effectively (for small boats) as the system is active / automatic, with no need for helm switches. The system uses a nitrogen gas actuator to pre load the plates and then allows the water to regulate their position. This pre load is adjustable during or after installation to suite the specific boat.<br /><br />The separation of the duties which allows the prop to propel and the trim tabs to adjust the (hull design) boat attitude and handling makes for a far more efficient and useful boat. Just like flaps on an airplane.
 

walleyehed

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6,767
Re: NewGuy PROP???

Boilermaker, if you get this post before going tonite, try one run with the stingray before you take it off.......... :) <br /> NautiJohn has some excellent info, so don't dis-count that info....he's good and has a very good understanding of what takes place, we just both have different ways of going about it..... :)
 

Boilermaker

Petty Officer 1st Class
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Sep 28, 2003
Messages
388
Re: NewGuy PROP???

Thanks guys>>>VERY good info!!!<br />I left the stingray on, and I am happy with the results of the 17" prop>>>MUCH better low/mid speed responce. Rpm @ WOT now at 5300. I still think I should loose the stingray because I have to trim SOOO high>>>It must be fighting itself to balance out the lift in the stern at planing speed or higher>>> that just doesn't make any sence to me. Now that the boat has a good holeshot again, and has the throttle responce I was after, I think it is just cutting some top end. I will try it without the Stingray next time out>(maybe Wends.)and report back!!!<br />>>>Now how about different types of props??? O.M.C. or aftermarket??? Stainless??? Vented/non-vented??? Are the props with the interchangable Hub/Props (VORTEX?) any good??? Seems like a nice way to save a few $$$ with changing for differant loads/sport towing ect..<br />As always alot of THANK YOUS for the advise and knowledge>>>it is GREATLY appreciated!!! :D
 

Jdeagro

iboats.com Partner
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Jul 30, 2003
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Re: NewGuy PROP???

Boilermaker;<br /><br />Let me try to help with the confussion regarding the excessive stern lift and bow down attitude using the hydrofoil.<br /><br />Let's compare it to a bare foot water skier. Unless the skier is a pro they will usually get up (out of the water) by using a ski, and then step off once they are going fast enough.<br /><br />What this is saying is that at low speeds the skiers foot print is not large enough to support his weight, but at high speeds the water pressure is plenty.<br /><br />The hydrofoil is marginally effective at low speeds, but because it is rigid, it produces increasing lift as the boat goes faster. <br /><br />Once the boat is on plane it does not need more lift, and this excessive lift is not good as it forces the bow down. Trimming the motor out to bring the bow up is not efficient because you are making the prop compensate for the excessive lift. The prop is for propelling.<br /><br />Untimately the boat runs slower and bow steers in turns and blows out the prop in sharp turns.<br /><br />I understand that you feel the difference on 3/4 to full throttle acceleration with the hydrofoil, but as they say "that ain't nothin" compared to Smart Tabs. (or for any properly size trim tabs).<br /><br />The advantage that Smart Tabs have is that they move up to a horizontal possition when the boat planes, and since they can go up beyond horizontal, the maximum lift pressure that can be applied by the Smart Tabs is whatever the preload of the Actuator permits. In your case it would be 60 Lbs per side or 120 lbs. <br /><br />Going back to the skier, lets do the math. Assume that the skier weighs 175 lbs. The average adult male foot print is 3" x 9" or 27 square inches time two for a total of 54 square inches. This 54 square inches is enough to support 175 Lbs. at 55 MPH. <br /><br />The average Hydrofoil for a boat that will go 55 MPH is 1 Square foot or 144 square inches. This works out to nearly 3 times the surface area of the skiers feet with a capability of over 500 lbs of stern lift (3 x 175 = 525) and excess bow pressure. <br /><br />Now use the prop to compensate by triming out to lift the excess bow pressure. It is not an efficient use of prop torque and results in lower speed because the motor is trimed out beyond perpendicular (which is the most efficient position).<br /><br />Matching the surface area of the plates to the size of the boat, and making them adjustable (or in the case of Smart Tabs matching the actuator prssure to the weight and HP of the motor) is the key to why Trim Tabs work so well.<br /><br />There are other factors and other benefits but that is another subject or two.
 

Boilermaker

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Sep 28, 2003
Messages
388
Re: NewGuy PROP???

OK John, I have a better handle on this now. But I have a question about the Smart Tabs>>>Do they actually "retract" up after a certan speed/pressure?or are they just held up BY the water pressure?? Because if its just held up by the force of the water pushing against them, I can't help but think this would create alot of extra drag. Just as in the analogy of the airplanes flaps>>>THEIR MAIN function is to INCREASE DRAG while extending the effective lifting surface of the wing allowing slower flight before stall. I am really very interested in your product>>>but would be concerned about HOW the actuator functions.<br /><br />ANY answers about the props??? I will need to purchase a new prop>>>so I NEED to get that figured out first!!! Thanks AGAIN!!!!
 

walleyehed

Admiral
Joined
Jun 29, 2003
Messages
6,767
Re: NewGuy PROP???

..........D mn, he's good :( :rolleyes: I'll end up with a set sooner or later...Talk to me John. :)
 

Jdeagro

iboats.com Partner
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Jul 30, 2003
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Re: NewGuy PROP???

Boilermaker;<br /><br />When the flaps of the airplane are down two things happen, one, the extended surface area on the top of the wing Vs the bottom creates added lift, and two the con caved bottom surface provides even more lift. Before I explain the Smart tabs principle (with the actuators) you need to remember one thing, unlike an airplane, the boat is in two different liquids, water and air. Obviously one is more dense than the other.<br /><br />Now to answer your question:<br />Starting from a rest or stop position, the tabs are down, and as the boat proceeds through the water, with the plates held in this position the stern is prevented from dropping because of the added lift of the plates in this 25 degree deployed state. The key word here is prevented, because when the stern drops the bow comes up and the leverage that the bow has in pushing the stern further down, increases. The name of the game is preventing the bow from coming up.<br /><br />As the boat gains speed the water pressure begins to push the plate up to a horizontal position. By the time the boat is a few miles per hour above planing speed, the plates are completely horizontal. Also keep in mind that this planing speed is now 35% below the pre tab planing speed, or typically about 15 to 17 MPH for a 19' to 21' boat. <br /><br />The drag you are concerned about is related to a deployed trim tabs. This is not the case, as the tabs are up. What you do have is the pre loaded force (of the actuator) which is overcome by the higher forces of the water. Example: The water pressure on the plates may be say 400 lb, and the actuator force is 60 lb. The net result is the boat gets additional lift on the stern when running at cruise speeds, of 60 lb. x two. But the plates are up not down - no drag. <br /><br />This added lift will never exceed the 60 lb. ( or whatever the tabs are adjusted to) because the travel of the plate can go beyond the horizontal position. <br /><br />What this now creates is a "suspension" system. The porpoising goes away because the lift in the back is helping keep the bow from coming up (remember air is thiner than water). If all of the porpoising is not eliminated, then you simply adjust (increase) the pressure, adding more resistance to the bow rise.<br /><br />Conversely, if the porpoising is eliminated but the top speed of the boat is less (after the installation of the tabs) then adjust the pressure (reduce it) so that the bow can come up at top speed. In other words if the boat does not go faster (2-4 mph) then the lift pressure on the stern is too much and should be reduced, because the bow is being pushed down. This ability to regulate the lift is where we begin to differentiate Smart Tabs from everything else in the market (i.e.: Hydrofoils). It is like fine tuning the suspension system on a race car. <br /><br />The next thing that sets Smart Tabs apart from the rest of the planing devices is that they are continuously active. At slow speeds, high speeds, cruise speeds, over wakes, in turns, etc. <br /><br />Go to the web site (www.nauticusinc.com), click on product tests, and open the Trailer Boats Magazine editorial test, you will see a comparison of before and after Smart Tabs on a 19 ft Maxum. Notice that at no time did the Smart Tabs deteriorate either the speed Vs RPMs or fuel economy. At every RPM level in 500 RPM increments, the speed was better, even at slow speeds when the tabs were down. Fuel economy was better, especially in the mid range. Acceleration to 30 MPH was 10% faster, bow rise was reduced 70%, and time to plane was faster. Low speed wander went away, and the ride was smoother. The only speed at which Smart Tabs did not improve the boat was the (what I call ) "sweet spot" where they din not effect peformance in anyway. This is where the boat hull reaches it's best efficiency, in this case it was 36 mph. Above and below this, it deteriorated. Smart Tabs help open the window of efficiency. <br /><br />Why does the boat go faster? It is simple, the boat attitude and handling ( ie.porpoising) is controlled by the trim tabs, and the prop is now used only for propelling. You trim the motor for the best prop bite, not attitude or to minimize porpoising. The motor will turn more RPMs so Prop the boat after the trim tabs.
 
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