NMMA members testify before Congress on E15

[Faztbullet]

November 3, 2011
Filed under News

WASHINGTON ? Following the results that were published in October showing the damaging effects of E15 on marine engines, David Hilbert, one of the leads on those research studies, sat with members of the Subcommittee on Energy and Environment, from the House Committee on Science, Space and Technology, at a Congressional hearing to discuss the effects of E15.

The subcommittee invited a number of specialists to the Congressional hearing to testify on the effects of E15, including Hilbert, who testified on behalf of the National Marine Manufacturers Association.

At the hearing, Hilbert testified to the damaging effects of E15 on boat engines, citing the reports released by the Department of Energy in October. The studies showed significant problems with outboard engines, including severe damage to engine components and increased exhaust emissions.

Subcommittee Chairman Andy Harris (R-MD) received David?s testimony favorably and the committee members had no questions for Hilbert, the NMMA said in a press release.

?We are pleased that Congress has shown an ongoing interest in this important research. NMMA is committed to continued research on E15 and its effects on marine engines,? Thom Dammrich, NMMA president, said in a press release.

?We hope that before any E15 is offered to the public, a thorough investigation will be completed so that boaters can safely fuel their vessels without incident now, and in the future,? he added.

 

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BRP engineer testifies on E15

BRP engineer testifies on E15

Filed under News

WASHINGTON ? On Thursday afternoon, Jeff Wasil, emissions certification engineer for BRP?s Evinrude Marine Engine division, testified on behalf of the National Marine Manufacturers Association at a Congressional hearing titled ?Hitting the Ethanol Blend Wall: Examining the Science on E15.?

According to the NMMA, the hearing, which was held by the Energy & Environment Subcommittee of the House Committee on Science, Space, and Technology, was to examine the scientific and technical issues related to EPA?s recent waiver decisions permitting mid-level ethanol blends of up to 15 percent ethanol in gasoline and receive feedback on draft legislative language. The EPA was represented by Margo Oge, Director of the Office of Transportation and Air Quality. Other witnesses at the hearing included representatives from the American Petroleum Institute, the Environmental Working Group, the National Chicken Council, the Biofuels Center of North Carolina and the Outdoor Power Equipment Institute.

In his testimony, Wasil outlined the technical reasons why ethanol is incompatible with boat engines and other non-road engines as well as concerns that EPA?s gas pump label will not do enough to prevent misfueling by consumers. Wasil also endorsed draft legislation that calls for a National Academy of Sciences survey of available scientific information relating to the effects on engines of ethanol blends greater than 10 percent. Wasil?s complete testimony is available here: Jeff Wasil testimony.

http://www.nmma.org/assets/cabinets/Cabinet432/Wasil Testimony 7 Jul 2011 total.pdf

 

[Silvertip]

Re: BRP engineer testifies on E15

Re: BRP engineer testifies on E15

I wish the manufacturers would actually indicate what exactly the issue(s) is/are with E15. For pete's sake even NASCAR is able to run their race engines at 9000+ rpm for 500 miles on E-15. Engine blow ups are few and far between. Yes - I know! The engine in my Impala runs very nicely on 85% ethanol (E-85) and has done so for nearly 70,000 miles. Marine I/O's are auto engine derivatives so there should be few problems to overcome with the exception of the moisture issue in large fuel tanks. Stainless steel fuel lines and education perhaps is all that's needed in that regard. As for outboards, the four strokes today should also have no issue with E-10 or E-15 as they too are just another rendition of the "suck - squeeze - bang - and blow" four stroke principle. I can see where the EFI/DFI two strokes might have some issues in the lubrication area but then again -- why is it manufacturers complain like crazy but always seem to be able find a solution when their backs are against the wall. We overcame emission controls in the seventies, we overcame the dreaded catalytic converter and my goodness when the carburetor died the world as we knew it would end for sure. My how times and ideas change. Buck up manufacturers and actually "design" your engines for E-15 rather than band aiding something and trying it out on the unsuspecting public. Let's also not get into the debate about subsidies, using food for fuel, etc. as it doesn't benefit the original discussion.

Lastly -- this testimony is similar to that by Mercury in which standard engines were tested and very obviously destroyed when run on E-15. So the issue isn't about the fuel as much as it is about the fuel being used in engines not designed to run it. In both reports, they indicate carburetion changes are needed to run it. So EDUCATE the public and make the retrofit kits available and be done with it. If that is the ONLY fuel available to your then that becomes an issue unless you make the necessary changes. One last comment and although I don't recommend this -- I will mention it because it is interesting. When E-85 became available here in Minnesota an employee begain using it in his old Ranger pickup. Other than decreased fuel economy he had zero issues with it in a vehicle that was not designed to run E-85. I also know folks who are using it at 50/50 (E-85/E-10) rate and are having no issues.

 

[halfmoa]

Re: BRP engineer testifies on E15

Re: BRP engineer testifies on E15

Though admittedly not what Mr. Wasil was addressing, there's a difference between engineering a new engine to perform within acceptable limits utilizing a new fuel blend and making a 40 year old engine perform within acceptable limits on the new blends and that's the problem that anyone with a non E85 compliant engine are facing, marine or otherwise. That's the heart of the issue to me as I can't imagine I'll ever own a new outboard....have you seen those prices?

 

[64osby]

Re: BRP engineer testifies on E15

Re: BRP engineer testifies on E15

After reading articles related to the above topic, I have been looking at gas pumps for Ethanol information this fall

I usually fill up a my local Shell station. I have never seen a label on their pumps. I started asking the counter employee's what the ethanol content was. No one at the counter could answer.

Today I was able to ask a manager. She stated that Shell does not use ethanol in their gas, corporate policy supposedly nationwide, she also added that BP does not either. She did state that at this time there is no plan to change the formula, but she did not know what changes might or would occur in the future.

I makes me feel better knowing that I have been using ethanol free gas for my outboards, even if it was by shear luck.

I'm not plugging anything and I don't work for them, just passing on info that seems relevant.

I also hope I'm not breaking the rules by mentioning brands, mods please edit if there is a problem.

 

[~Nickolas~]

Re: BRP engineer testifies on E15

Re: BRP engineer testifies on E15

You say Shell and BP doesn't use Ethanol in their gas? Well here where I live at both of these gas stations there are stickers on the pumps indicating Ethanol content up to 10% so I don't know where that came from... However I do own an ethanol test kit and one day I took some of the BP gas and did a test and it came back very low with around 3-6 % ethanol content. There is a Liberty gas station up the road that advertises 100% ethanol free gas so I pulled in and fueled up with my boat one day. Well out in the water it was running like crap. I got home and pulled out my test kit and sure enough guess what............. 10% ethanol content in that gas!!! So don't believe everything you see or hear. There is another station back behind me that advertises no ethanol and I got some of it and tested it. This fuel was showing ethanol but only a trace amount. He is .10 cents higher than everyone else but that;s ok by me for almost pure gas I'll pay it for my outboards...

 

[Silvertip]

Re: BRP engineer testifies on E15

Re: BRP engineer testifies on E15

Here in Minnesota we just went through an exercise where too much ethanol was belended and BP was involved as was Shell.

 

[64osby]

Re: BRP engineer testifies on E15

Re: BRP engineer testifies on E15

You say Shell and BP doesn't use Ethanol in their gas? Well here where I live at both of these gas stations there are stickers on the pumps indicating Ethanol content up to 10% so I don't know where that came from... ...

What's the old saying - Believe half of of what you read and none of what you hear

Just to be clear I did state

She stated that Shell does not use ethanol in their gas, corporate policy supposedly nationwide, she also added that BP does not either. She did state that at this time there is no plan to change the formula, but she did not know what changes might or would occur in the future.

Maybe the no ethanol is regional or state thing. Maybe it's just the one station I go to

 

[79Merc80]

Re: BRP engineer testifies on E15

Re: BRP engineer testifies on E15

The co-op up here is the only place to get Ethanol free gas, and only in the 92 octane. It was about 4.12 a gallon most of the summer.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: BRP engineer testifies on E15

Re: BRP engineer testifies on E15

I am thinking that Swift Fuel might be a better choice for marine engines.

http://www.swiftenterprises.com/Swift Fuel.html

If you want ethanol free gas you can go to http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp

To be ensure that they're not pulling one over on you, use a test kit to determine if it's ethanol free....


Regards,


Rick

 

[Scott Danforth]

Re: BRP engineer testifies on E15

Re: BRP engineer testifies on E15

In addition to marine engines, the outdoor power industry is currently against E15.

http://www.opei.org/news/detail.dot?id=20208

Ethanol attracts moisture.
Ethanol phase separates in days.
Any Ethanol above 10% voids your small engine warranty

in a car, Ethanol is less benign because cars are driven daily and the fuel stays agitated, keeping the ethanol in suspension. Ethanol however has less energy than gasoline, and doesnt have the carbon backbone required for fuel stability (which is why the fuel starts to break down in weeks, not months). unless the vehicle is a flex fuel vehicle, the engine will continue to run crappier with more and more ethanol as most road vehicles are not equipped with wide-band O2 sensors to adjust the AFR.

I wont even get into the only reason that Ethanol is viable is because our tax dollars pay the subsidies.

Here is the most interesting thing. Briggs and Stratton found up to 31% ethanol in fuel pumps in a random test of fuel stations in southern states with E10 labels.

I also follow pure-gas.org