Odd Electrical Issue... need some help!!

[Aquaman-PSD]

I have a 87 Monarch Fish and Ski. It ran fine all last year and at the beggining of this year. I took it out a few times and everything was fine. Then, like an idiot, I left the key on one time and let the batterys drain. I went back plugged in the three bank charger until it said good to go. I took it out and click nothing... battery had plenty of charge. Now when I go to turn the key there is a pop and EVERYTHING in the boat goes dead. Tilt/trim, radio, sonar, everything. Then all I have to do is take the batttery cable offf and put it back on a couple times and it will start fine. I know it is not connection related because i've cleaned everything i could offf. My boat does not have fuses on the ignition, it has some weird looking type of breaker. But i never have to reset the breaker. All i have to do is disconnect the battery cable and put it back on, and try to start it. After I do the exact same thing 4 or 5 times it will fire right up and run great 4 or 5 times that the cycle starts over... It sounds like something is shorting out but then why don't I have to reset the breakers? Could it be that the breaker is going bad? afterall it is 25 years old. The motor is a 93 Johnson GT 200. Any help would be greatly appriciated. I am getting married in September, closing on our first house on Friday and have no money to take it to a shop. If I can't get it fixed then no boat for me this summer :-(

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Odd Electrical Issue... need some help!!

You have two electrical systems on your boat. The smaller gauge wires feed the fuse or breaker panel at the helm. The red wire in that system should have a fuse or circuit breaker close to the positive terminal on the battery. If it is a circuit breaker, the pop you hear may be that breaker opening because of excessive current flow. That breaker may also be an automatic reset type so by the time you remove the battery cables, and replace them, the breaker has cooled and reset itself. HOWEVER, unless someone mucked with the wiring, that should not prevent the engine from cranking since the engine is not powered through the "Boat" system. It is powered via the large red and black battery cables going to the engine. What's also confusing is that you have three batteries and leaving the key on killed all three of them. No knowing how they are wired makes it impossible to tell you what's going on. Only the starting battery would be affected by the ignition switch if the boat was wired normally. However, if a stereo or other accessories are wired through the ignition switch (which is a NO-NO), then that accounts for the dead starting battery. It DOES NOT account for the other two batteries being dead. Likewise, starting the engine should not pop the breaker on the "BOAT" circuit, unless as I mentioned earlier, someone has done some "creative wiring". You need to explain a little more or better yet, post a diagram of how your boat IS currently wired regarding the batteries.

 

[Aquaman-PSD]

Re: Odd Electrical Issue... need some help!!

Thanks for the reply. I know it is very weird. I don't have a diagram but I did mispeak, I have three batterys, one for cranking, one backup and one that is on its own circuit for the trolling motor. The trolling motor obviously doesn't go dead when the rest of the boat does. The other two batteries are hooked in series all my dash wires and ignition are hooked into the cranking battery. The only thing that is on the third deep cycle is the cables from the charger and the cables that link the two batteries. Its really weird because the first time it happened I figured i below a fuse in the ignition somewhere. I looked and looked and couldn't fine a fuse. Then I realized that the metal box with two little red buttons with "40" written on it were actually 40 amp breakers. So you think the breaker could be over heating and poping. Thats weird because what would cause the electrical surge needed to heat the element inside that break up enough to pop?

 

[glenn property of pam]

Re: Odd Electrical Issue... need some help!!

i hope you mean the 2 batteries for the boat motor are in parrallel + to + and - to - . breakers dont normally make a poping sound they normally have a solid click to them. short circuits and bad connections especially loose ones make a poping sound. a volt meter is the best way to test to see if the breaker is open. Is there anything between the positive to the motor and the batteries?

 

[glenn property of pam]

Re: Odd Electrical Issue... need some help!!

The more i re-read your post the more i have to ask are you sure that you have identified the right batteries. two batteries and two 40amp breakers on a large boat that needs more than a 55lb trowling motor proberly means that the trolling motor is a 12/24 which would require 2 batteries/ 2 breakers and the batteries wired in series as mentioned in post #3. If you do not have a dual battery switch then im going to guess that the terminals are loose on the battery thats on its own and when you play with the other batteries you are jolting the leads around on the single battery and the pop is the arc when the starter motor trys to pull a few hundred amps over a poor connection. This is just a guess which is why i think you need to follow the motor leads all the way back to a battery

 

[Aquaman-PSD]

Re: Odd Electrical Issue... need some help!!

The trolling motor is a 12/24 but it is on it's own battery. It's a completely seperate circuit and the trolling motor works fine when the breaker or whatever pops and everything goes dead. The way it is set up is I have two batteries on the Starboard side for the motor and accessories. Those two are linked. The Trolling motor is a 75lbs thrust that is run off the port side battery alone. I really don't think it is a problem with the connection at the battery because I cleaned the terminals with a dremil tool and they are shinny as brand new. If it is a wiring problem then I think I would have had some problem at some point in time until all of a sudden it just came on when the batteries went dead and I charged then over night.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Odd Electrical Issue... need some help!!

More confused as you describe things.

You say you have a 12/24 trolling motor yet there is only one battery for it and you say it is stand alone. Yet you IMPLY that the troller doesn't work either when the POP occurs. A 12/24 motor needs two batteries in SERIES to run on 24 volts. It can also run on 12 volts by flipping the switch but that usually places the SERIES connected batteries in PARALLEL for 12 volt operaion. There are three wire troller systems that use only one of the batteries when in 12 volt mode. So you need to investigate this situation and describe it a little more clearly.

I'm guessing here, but is it possible one of the batteries is also used for the trolling motor as well as being wired for use in conjunction with the starting and house circuits. If so, then there is a potential grounding issue that is causing the problem. You really need to diagram exactly what the wiring scheme is before we can help you. Circuit breakers are obviously popping or arcing is going on for a reason. That reason is very likely some poorly designed wiring. Knowing where the popping is coming from would also help so have someone else run the ignition while you listen for noises.

 

[Aquaman-PSD]

Re: Odd Electrical Issue... need some help!!

OK I'm really sorry please bare with me here. I think I mentioned before that the trolling motor does work when the breaker pops. Everything else dies including the tilt trim and dash. That being said I have a switch wired into the bow control cluster that switches the trolling motor between 12 and 24 volts. could it be that I have always had it on the 12 setting which would cause it to only draw from the one battery. Then when it got switched to 24 volts it started drawing from the other battery which had a short circuit in it somewhere? I guess i really don't know enough about the wiring of a 12/24 trolling motor. Then again this problem happens sometimes when my trolling motor isn't even plugged in? So that is why I don't think it really has anything to do with the trolling motor. I will check it out tonight and take a closer look at how the trollin motor is wired.

Bubba- I thought at first it was an arc that I was hearing as well but why would an arc make everything ( besides the trolling motor) go dead? It even kills my tilt trim on the motor. I would assume that they have to be self resetting breakers because I never have to touch them and like I said after messing with the battery cables, which would take about 5 mins, it starts up fine again.

 

[glenn property of pam]

Re: Odd Electrical Issue... need some help!!

if it is a arc you have to think of it like a small bridge. When only a few people cross a small bridge it will carry then but when you turn on something large like the starter motor then a whole load of people try to run across the bridge and it breaks (there is a build of of burnt material that stops the bridge from being rebuilt). When you wiggle the cable you break up some of the material that is built up and you end up with a small bridge again..

still makes no sense that you have 12/24 and the trolling motor only has one battery. It can be done but theres so many things that you would have to understand to make it work that anyone else who disconnect the batteries could be in a real mess.
Can we please get some pictures and follow the wires to indicate where they are connected including the 2 big cables that go to the motor.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Odd Electrical Issue... need some help!!

The fact that this happens even if the troller is not plugged in has no bearing on the issue but the issue IS very likely related to the wiring of the three batteries and also why I said draw a diagram so we can stop guessing. Someone has done some creative wiring here. Draw three batteries with + and - clearly marked. Now add lines from each battery to wherever they go. If there are connections between batteries, show them. You have a 12/24 motor. To get 24 volts you need two batteries in series. So two of those batteries are providing that voltage (or at least are supposed to). I would not doubt that someone has decided to use the 24 volt pair to provide a 12 volt source from one of the pair. The problem with that is if it is done incorrectly, you create a ground issue. So far we have not been getting help other than poor descriptions. How about listening for this noise and by all means, draw the diagram. It is really not that difficult. Then and only then can we help you.

 

[Aquaman-PSD]

Re: Odd Electrical Issue... need some help!!

OK I THINK I FIGURED THE PROBLEM OUT!!!!!! I went back and looked at it last night and low and behold I guess I'm not as observant as I thought. The trolling motor is hooked to the battery on the Port Side. That Battery is hooked positive to negative to the back up battery on the starboard side via a cable that is hidden and I didn't see. The Cranking motor is not hooked up to any other battery. As you guys said the only thing going into the breaker box is the trolling motor, good call!! so we are good on that. I started looking for shorts somehwere under my dash and realized the easiest way to narrow down the problem is to disconnect everything from the cranking battery except the cables going to the OB. When I did that I happened to have the cowl off and on the third crank I hear the buzzing sound that when the cowl was on it sounded like a pop. So that leave two things, the solenoid or the starter. Since in my experience when a starter goes bad it give some warning and makes a tick tick tick noise instead of just shorting out I am 99% sure that it is my solenoid!! I am going to buy one off of Iboats today and hopefully that will solve the problem!! Thank you guys for all the help. As you can tell when it come to electrical stuff I would say I am novice at best!! I will let you know when the part comes in if it fixes the problem!!

 

[Aquaman-PSD]

Re: Odd Electrical Issue... need some help!!

I do have one other question since we are on the subject of trolling motors. One the bow control cluster I have a switch that on the down position reads 12/24 run, there is noting in the middle position, then if the top it says 12v charge... Do I have to have it in 12v charge setting to charge the trolling motor batteries? the trolling motor works in all three positions.

 

[glenn property of pam]

Re: Odd Electrical Issue... need some help!!

I do have one other question since we are on the subject of trolling motors. One the bow control cluster I have a switch that on the down position reads 12/24 run, there is noting in the middle position, then if the top it says 12v charge... Do I have to have it in 12v charge setting to charge the trolling motor batteries? the trolling motor works in all three positions.

the switch is 12v dual (charge) / 12v one battery / 24 run. as theres no need for 12v from one battery its might not be labelled as its kinda usless to use it. unless you plan to plug in a charger at the trolling motor socket then ignore the (charger) label and just use it as a 12/..../24 switch.

clean ALL the connections at the motor and look for one thats been arcing this includes the ground wire attached to a bolt near the starter. If it was a solinoid then the contacts are encased so you proberly wouldnt hear it and it wouldnt cut your tilt out so battery to positive post and the battery negative to bolt would be the first place to look...
On the good news side you have learnt something about your boat batteries so thats always a plus

 

[Aquaman-PSD]

Re: Odd Electrical Issue... need some help!!

One last quick update. I replaced the Solenoid yesterday morning and took her out last night. Ran with no issues at all! Also I think I figured out why it killed the tilt trim as well. There were a total of 6 wires hooked to the solenoid. one for incoming power, one out the other side going to the starter. There were also two wire attached the the incoming post that went into the box with my trim relays. The other two wires were attached to the face of the solenoid on different posts. Not sure what they were for. I am SOOOOO glad this was an easy fix and I'm back on the water!

 

[glenn property of pam]

Re: Odd Electrical Issue... need some help!!

One last quick update. I replaced the Solenoid yesterday morning and took her out last night. Ran with no issues at all! Also I think I figured out why it killed the tilt trim as well. There were a total of 6 wires hooked to the solenoid. one for incoming power, one out the other side going to the starter. There were also two wire attached the the incoming post that went into the box with my trim relays. The other two wires were attached to the face of the solenoid on different posts. Not sure what they were for. I am SOOOOO glad this was an easy fix and I'm back on the water!

just for notes the two wires on the face are one negative and one from the key thats positive when you go to crank the motor. i hope you cleaned the wires before you put them back on the solinoid especially the 2 that went to the trim relay box or you will be back with the same problem again in the future.
p.s from what you have said im sure only one wire went to the trim the other is in the loom and goes to the starter key which is why all your other items quit when it arc-ed

glad you got it fixed and back on the water