Oil Seals

[BobFifty]

Hi Folks,<br />I have a 1979 runabout with a 228 merc i/o. I have been changing the lower unit oil after each lake trip. I do this because it gets so contaminated with water. When I take out the drain screw the first pint of flow is water then milky lube. I know I am living on borrowed time with this and not doing the best thing for the environment, but I do fear that this repair would be cost prohibitive for me to go to a shop. My questions are as follows,<br />1. I have rebuilt car engines as a hobby in my younger days and would like to do this repair myself is that possible with my knowledge.<br />2. How do you determine wich seals are bad or do you just replace them all (upper and lower).<br />3. is it less expensive just to buy a rebuilt lower unit.<br />Thanks for any help you can offer<br />Bob

 

[tommays]

Re: Oil Seals

bob<br />you would need a service manual<br /><br />the drive would be removed from the boat and pressure tested to find the leak <br /><br />there are many places it could be leaking but in your case it is a huge leak<br /><br />i think you are beyond borrowed time and have most likely damaged the bearings and drive gears <br /><br />you will only really no with a compleat tear down<br /><br />tommays

 

[Bondo]

Re: Oil Seals

Tommays right......<br /><br />I Think that you're Probably looking at Much More than a Simple Reseal Job................<br />With what you've stated, I see Bad Seals, Possibly Shafts,+ Gears.....No Doubt Some or All the Bearings........<br />So,<br />

1. I have rebuilt car engines as a hobby in my younger days and would like to do this repair myself is that possible with my knowledge.<br />

I Seriously Doubt It....... Even if you had a Factory Service Manual,+ the $everal Hundred Dollar$ worth of $pecial Tool$ it takes.......I'm a Mechanic by trade,+ Still bring Mine to a Bud, who does these things Every Day.........<br />It's a Very Specialized Field........<br />

2. How do you determine wich seals are bad or do you just replace them all (upper and lower).

There are Pressure,+ Vacuum Tests.......But, In Your Case, A Full Tear-down,+ Overhaul is in order.........<br />

3. is it less expensive just to buy a rebuilt lower unit.

Well,... Yes,+ No.....<br /><br />With a Rebuilt Unit, they'll Charge you a Core Charge, which Maybe refunded, IF your Old Parts are Rebuildable...... <br />In Your Case, I Think You'd Loose.........<br />There's an Exceptionally Good Chance that the Only Reusable Parts left in Your outdrive,..... Are The Cases..........<br /><br />What I see as Your Best Way Out is,<br />Finding a used serviceable outdrive on ebay........<br />Or,<br />The Aftermarket Outdrives sold here at iboats.com are a Steal of a Deal...............<br /><br />Good Luck.....<br /><br />Oh ya, BTW, Welcome to the forums here at iboats................................

 

[BobFifty]

Re: Oil Seals

Thanks for the replies, <br />It sounds like I cannot save the outdrive so I will just run it until it goes out. It has made it about 20 times to the lake with lube changes after each trip. I will let you know how many more it handles.<br />Thanks again,<br />Bob

 

[Bondo]

Re: Oil Seals

Don't Forget the Paddle,...................

 

[trog100]

Re: Oil Seals

i really dont go for this "worse case scenario".. "professional get sued if u get it wrong".. "spend someone elses money".. advice that totally dominates this forum..<br /><br />okay for "professionals" it is good sound advice..<br /><br />but for a shadetree mechanic with limited funds at his disposal it isnt..<br /><br />okay so cos someone says bobfifty has already wrecked his drive so bobfifty thinks he will carry and really wreck his drive.. jeesh what nonsense..<br /><br />what u should really do bobfify as a good shadetree mechanic is to do what u were originally gonna do in the first place.. ignore all this doom laden guaranteed to cost a fortune stuff..<br /><br />pull the drive.. replace the seals which wont cost a lot.. except praps for your time.. then carry on running your boat and see how long it lasts..<br /><br />u might be pleasantly surprised.. at least "for a shadetree mechanic" who aint gonna get sued if it dosnt work.. is spending his own limited funds.. and really has bugger all to lose if it dosnt work.. it is worth a try.. especially if the drive sounds okay and seems to run all right.. <br /><br />okay.. all u pros out there flame me all u like..<br /><br />trog100

 

[BobFifty]

Re: Oil Seals

Thanks for the input,<br />When I look at buying a new outdrive for this boat that is probably more than the boat is worth. It is in great shape for a 1979 model, but how many 1979 models sell for much more than the cost a new outdrive.<br />Bob

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Oil Seals

hello Trog100<br /><br /> no flaming here<br /> I wish all boat owners would attept their own reseals.<br /> I need the money.<br />the cost of some of the tools required really wont justify a single seal job. if all you need is seals in the gear case you will have to have the following tools or or make a suitable tool. the spanner nut wrench for the lower bearing carrier. I never try to remove the old ones just drill holes in the nut and crack them out. its faster and easier. you will need the puller to pull the carrier. if this is a saltwater unit you will also need oxy/acetylene.be aware that the puller in the merc manual is about as useful as a teat on a boar hog. I use the j_bolt style from OMC on them.<br />you will need a tool to pry the seals out without damaging the aluminium bores and a proper sized tool to press them in. I try not to use a swing press on them.<br />you will need the tool to torque the nut to 200 ft pounds when done. you will need a shift shaft bushing removal tool. you will need the input shaft spanner nut wrench. this nut also torques to 200 ft pounds and the conversion chart is in the manual for different torque wrench lengths. you may need a dial type inch pounds torque wrench dependingon if the upper was updated. you will need an accurate ft pound torque wrench and always replace the drive gear retaning nut and tension washer. and its imperitive to buy the proper merc drive manual .<br /> an easy way to tell if you have much damage is to remove the 4 12pt 3/8ths bolts on the top cover for inspection. you will need a can of perfect seal for reassembly.if any gears or bearings need replacing it becomes more than the average shade tree can deal with.<br /> the two most common leakage areas are the shift shaft and the waterpump base driveshaft seals.

 

[BobFifty]

Re: Oil Seals

I think I will do some reading on the subject and then price out my options. This all sounds like a good chance to explain to my Wife why we need a new boat.<br /><br />Bob Fifty<br />after all it is what it is.

 

[KaGee]

Re: Oil Seals

Originally posted by BobFifty:<br /> This all sounds like a good chance to explain to my Wife why we need a new boat.<br />

 

[tommays]

Re: Oil Seals

trog<br />what could be more worst case than running a drive with 50% water for about 20 days<br /><br />its not like the oil was a littel milkey for one drain<br /><br />and if you dont take it apart and clean up the insides you will never know the condtion of the parts and what can be reused and what cant<br /><br />tommays

 

[tommays]

Re: Oil Seals

?

 

[TilliamWe]

Re: Oil Seals

Trog, Tommy, Rodbolt, let's not fight here! <br />In my opinion, the best course of action is somewhere in between what the "professionals" say, and what trog says...<br />Bobfifty, I would hate to see you not attempt any repair, continue using with water in the drive & therefore GUARANTEE that it will all be junk. In my opinion, it may not be too late. You may not have ruined all the gears & such. Even if you have to pay someone to put in new seals, if it buys you more time on that drive, wouldn't it be worth it? <br />If it were my drive, I'd have it resealed, and then use it until it broke. Then throw the boat away, and buy another.<br />Good luck

 

[Bondo]

Re: Oil Seals

Mod.1s go for anywhere from $200.00 to $500.00 on ebay All the Time.........<br /><br />I'm not saying they're All, "Ready to Run",.....<br />It's a bit of a Crap Shoot,<br />But, I've had Great Luck.......<br />

I think I will do some reading on the subject and then price out my options.

Bob,<br />Wander over Here .... There's All you want to Know about Your Drive............

 

[BobFifty]

Re: Oil Seals

Thanks Bondo,<br />There may be help for my outdrive yet because I left out one other clue. I seem to get gear lube in the boat below the engine. This may be a bad yok seal?<br /><br />Thanks again<br />Bob Fifty<br />It does float and I am never in a hurry when I am at the lake.

 

[Bondo]

Re: Oil Seals

Ayuh,....... That's the Yoke Seal that's leaking Too.....<br /><br />That's Not where the Water is coming from though........<br /><br />I'd be curious if there's Any Seals in your drive that Aren't Leaking.................. <br /><br />Bob,<br />I wish I had Better News for you, But, I Don't........<br />The Best News I can give you is that the Boys,+ I will be here to help guide you through, or around the Many Expensive Pitfalls......<br />Along with the "What Fits",+ "How Comes",+ the "Can I's".............................<br /><br />If it were Me,<br />I'd drag that drive up to My Bud's place,+ Ask him to Tear it Down,+ See how many cards I had left to play with.................<br />When I had that information,+ what You can learn from the site I posted,...I'd be doing the "Mercruiser" search on ebay...Weekly, if not Daily.......<br />By next season I'd be boating in a Dependable Craft, for $500. or so...........<br /><br />And, Ayuh,......... I Still carry a Paddle............

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Oil Seals

yep kinda what Bondo says. I wont flame many shade trees. been under the oak a time or two in my life. <br /> one of the funniest tools I have seen of late was the homemade tool for removing and installing the carrier nut on a v6 yamaha when I was in venezuela. was the front 4wd hub from a toyota with 6 3/8ths bolts and a handle welded on it. fit perfect and worked well. as far as that 200 ft pounds went ya just pull till your eyes pop and its done. I did not comment on it but it works.<br /> I have made a shift bushing tool the first trip to VE. made it by welding 2 small strips of 1/4 plate on a 7/16 3/8's drive socket.<br /> somebody posted here how they made their own drive shaft spanner wrench.<br /> having worked with the mechanic in Rio Chico venezuela a few times I found he is almost my equal for making do with the materiels at hand when the ones you wish for are just not avalible.

 

[trog100]

Re: Oil Seals

i must admit to being a lifetime shadetree mechanic.. nice term that.. in england we dont have such an "apt" one..<br /><br />okay a shadetree tale.. a few months back my youngest offspring and his beloved decided to buy a little boat.. they thought they could manage about £3000 for a little twenty foot-ish river/canal cruiser..<br /><br />anyways they didnt really like the little cruisers up close but they saw this very pretty I/O semi-hardtop walk around called a Marino.. made in Finland in the eighties i think.. the boat really did look pretty.. <br /><br />problem was the guy wanted £8000 for it.. but they offered £5000 and "amazingly" the guy says £5500 and somehow they ended up owning this very pretty little boat..<br /><br />this boat is fitted with a BMW engine/drive unit.. not been made since the late eighties and probably unheard of in america..<br /><br />anyway driving the boat home it suffered a minor breakdown and got stuck in a lock.. the gear change thingy (thingy is a typical shadtree term by the way) pulled loose.. anyways my offspring in typical shadetree fashion fixed it back on with the help of some super glue..<br /><br />this tale goes from bad to worse by the way... he he<br /><br />after a few days the boat kept jamming in reverse gear.. the drive has a cone type clutch.. bear in mind this boat is still in the water.. anyways lack of oil in the drive is suspected by us shadetrees.. off comes the top and we attempt to pour some flushing oil in there.. all seems okay till we look in the boat and find a bilge full of flushing oil.. he he he<br /><br />we had made a special fitting plus pipe plus funnel so as to be able to fill the drive while still in the water by the way..<br /><br />anyways we decide the boat has to come out of the water.. so river in full flood we tow the bloody thing six miles up river to the nearest slipway.. <br /><br />the idea was to pull the drive leave the boat where it was and take the drive 20 miles home to where my offspring lives then fix it..<br /><br />anyway.. nothing on this bloody drive would come apart.. but after a day we have it (plus half the boat) on the floor in a pub carpark.. but its quite clear the entire boat has to go off to where my sons house and workshop is..<br /><br />lots of spare parts came with this drive.. none of them other than old junk but some of it was still servicable..<br /><br />fourteen days of drilling.. pressing.. swearing.. painting.. plus lots of ingenuity had this thing stripped right down.. rebuilt and back in the boat.. the only new part.. one auto oil seal..<br /><br />we had no special tools but we did have a ten ton press.. which was needed.. but this drive was twenty years old and in real terms junk.. <br /><br />back in the water it goes and low and behold it all appears to work okay.. anyways a month later my offspring and his beloved cease to be errr "beloved" and he loses the bloody boat anyways.. he he he.. knowing what we know now we should have just let the thing die and go to boat heaven there and then..<br /><br />basically the guy who had the boat before us had spent a couple of years going right thru it making it look nice but the drive had buggered him.. he quite clearly knew it had no oil in it before he sold it and my son knowing bugger all about boats bought it.. he dont know much about women either... he he he<br /><br />we found the boat for sale on the net the other day.. priced at £8995.. whether it is worth it or not i cant say.. but it is definely worth more than it was when my offspring bought the bloody thing in the first place.. he he..<br /><br />u cant buy new parts for these BMW Z drives and there are no manuals.. engine are okay the scrapyards are full of 3 series beamers.. but parts for the drives just dont exist so sometimes shadetree is the only way.. no pro would have gone within a mile of the thing..<br /><br />with an old drive the real trick is not do any more dismantling than u have to.. if all it appears to need is one oil seal.. just do that.. just like with anything old that dosnt want to come apart easily... trying to take old things apart just to check things is bad news.. sometimes "if it aint broke dont fix it" really does make sense.. and if u really have to fix it.. dont fix any more than is really necessary.. "old" is best left alone if u can..<br /><br />oh.. and this little marino boat did come with a full "proffesional" surveyors report valueing it at £10.000 by the way.. it would seem that they are okay as regards finding a whole in the bottom of your boat but not a knackered outdrive.. <br /><br />trog100

 

[KaGee]

Re: Oil Seals

Trog.... good story.<br /><br />There seems to be a strange relationship between women, men and their boats. <br /><br />We always refer to it as a "she". We name them often after the one who has captured our emotions. Both require a maintenance manual. And some, if not most of us don't know first thing about fixing them when broke. Last but not least... both will drain your bank account in the blink of an eye!