$ Oil VS $ LPG

[levittownnick]

Part I: Where do I find comparison heating costs for identical conditions over a one year or more period? (Long Island NY area)

Part II: How do I equiate quantities (100 gal. #2 oil = ? LPG)?

Part III: What should be known about LPG storage?

Part IV: If the LPG heating system were adjacent to but outside the home in a well insulated enclosure, would there be a big penilty in fuel because the heat lost from the heating system is not recovered into the home?

Thanks much,
Nick

 

[Bob_VT]

Re: $ Oil VS $ LPG

Whole cost?

Would you have to convert your present system?

I bet a propane dealer has it all laid out in dollars for a good way to compare. I imagine the larger propane dealers have ALL the answers to your questions.

Is your house a Levitt home? Radiant heat in the floors? I know only very few were forced hot air. I used to live in Franklin Sq and I still have family in L-town close to the HS.

 

[Uraijit]

Re: $ Oil VS $ LPG

Heating Oil = 136,000 - 141,000 BTUs / gal.
LPG = 92,000 BTUs per gal.

LPG storage is pretty safe. It's stored at relatively low pressures (500 PSI or so), in a good sturdy tank. It's much cleaner burning than oil, or most other fuels (which is why it's okay to cook with it indoors. It doesn't create carbon monoxide.

Only trouble with propane, is that it's heavier than air, so it CAN end up in a basement, or something like that. If you have access to natural gas, that's a better alternative.

Not sure why you want to have your heating unit away from the house, but naturally if you did that, you'd be losing efficiency. If you're talking about a central heating unit, that blows directly into the home from outside, the loss would be minimal.

LPG is nothing new, it's been around, and safely used for a long time. I'd rather use propane before oil, and natural gas would be at the top of my list.

 

[levittownnick]

Re: $ Oil VS $ LPG

I do have a Levitt home, the radient heat was nice but it's long been gone in favor of baseboard heating.

Levitt homes in NY were built without basements so the heaver gas should not be a major concern. I cited LPG but that is because of my lack of knowledge on the subject. Most of Levittown don't have gas service so I would need bottled gas. I'm looking into information at this time just to see if it is a good option. Money is certainly a driving factor and safety is also a factor. I asked about an outside installition for a safety concern. If there were a gas leak, the gas not being within living spaces would be an advantage. Since my heating system is relatively old, I would not consider a retrofit but rather a new system. I have hot water heating therefore 3 well insulated pipes running from the heating system into the house and power lines is all that I think is required.

A speaker that I was listening to the other day stated that he wanted to see all large engines converted to natural gas. This guy is an oil-man but he gives figures on the money we send overseas and said that we have ample supplies of natural gas for many years to come and that switching to natural gas keeps that money within the country. I like that idea.

By the way, with fuel through the roof, how does electric heat compair?

Thanks for your input,
Nick

 

[MikDee]

Re: $ Oil VS $ LPG

Being a former Long Islander, I'd say LPG would probably cost you more to heat your house the oil! Natural gas is cheaper, but even a bit more then oil. I did an oil, to gas, conversion for my Daughter, & Son In Law, in Valley Stream about 12 yrs ago, aside from having a new, more efficient, cleaner burning boiler, and no basement oil tank, it was not cheaper to run. Plus electric rates on the Island are no bargain! forget about that. Get yourself, a wood, or pellet stove, to supplement your system, that's the only way.

 

[triumphrick]

Re: $ Oil VS $ LPG

That speaker, who I remained riveted to during that speech was none other than T Boone Pickens. He was warmly received by the committe listening to him and during the hour or so that he spoke I heard many sensible things. He is a big advocate of Natural Gas and the huge effect it will have on off setting our imports of mideast oil. He stated that if we were to change over our cities, states and federal vehicles to LPG that we would immediately save 38% of our imported oil. That number equates to the exact amount we import from the middle east. The city of Los Angeles has converted 8000 city busses over and Gov. Arnold is looking for many more areas to convert. He is a huge advocate of wind power, He presented a wind map of the US to show how profitable it would be to install these huge wind farms, provide new infrastructure and connect to existing grids. I may have a few facts and figures wrong, but I am close. For the real deal check out his site and video. It's awesome, and about damn time that someone, somewhere takes the bull by the horns and does something. And stay tuned for my garage rooftop solar panel array that I hope to complete in the next year. More numbers coming later.

http://www.pickensplan.com/


http://www.pickensplan.com/

 

[levittownnick]

Re: $ Oil VS $ LPG

I guess if natural gas is still more than oil, it will be a hard bullet to bite. I would like to think that if we have adequate natural gas (the kind the gas company sells) that with the current oil market, it should be less than the equivalent oil. Guess I'm wrong again.

I was trying to think of the the speaker before but triumphrick nailed it and even sited his web. If enough bullets were bitten, the oil price is bound to drop, and in the long run, we would all benefit. If as he said, the money remained on shore, a lot of good could come.

Thanks to all,
Nick

 

[Bob_VT]

Re: $ Oil VS $ LPG

MikDee had a great suggestion.....the pellet stove. Very good source of supplemental heat and you can carry bags of pellets in a trunk of a car if the need comes up.

Too bad the radiant heat went by the wayside.... that would make a great place to put supplemental hot water heat. Levitt was years ahead of his time and made a decent afforable home for his time.

 

[NW Redneck]

Re: $ Oil VS $ LPG

Ever consider going with a heat pump? More $$ in equipment up front, but hands down the cheapest systems to operate. It's alot more efficient to move heat from one place to another than to generate the heat yourself. A properly sized and installed system (air-air or air-water) will keep you just as comfy for far less $$ per season.

 

[Uraijit]

Re: $ Oil VS $ LPG

Ever consider going with a heat pump? More $$ in equipment up front, but hands down the cheapest systems to operate. It's alot more efficient to move heat from one place to another than to generate the heat yourself. A properly sized and installed system (air-air or air-water) will keep you just as comfy for far less $$ per season.

Never met a heat pump that worked like it should...

 

[levittownnick]

Re: $ Oil VS $ LPG

When I looked at heat pump technology a few years ago, you could only use them in relatively warm climates. NY was out of there zone. Taking heat out of the ground in NY was not a viable option either. It required big bucks and a good plot of land or drilling deep wells.

Keep the idea's flowing,
Nick

 

[rndn]

Re: $ Oil VS $ LPG

You may want to shop around for propane pricing. I just locked up my propane at $2.29/gallon for next year. I did have to pre-buy the 840 gallons I use but at 2.29/gallon it works out to be a decent savings over fuel oil.

I also had a company quote me for installing a heat pump and at $20k up front and an estimated $1,000 annual savings it was not worth waiting 20 years to get my money back. Also, on the coldest days you are still required to use a backup heat source as the heat pump can't provide enough heat on it's own.

 

[arboldt]

Re: $ Oil VS $ LPG

This site gives cost-comparison formulas that may help you.

http://www.gearypacific.com/ComfortZone/11 What Does it Cost to Heat.pdf

It does not evaluate fuel oil, but given the btu / gal cited by another poster, you can figure it out. Since this site was done a few years ago, the cost factors will be significantly different, of course, as well as regional differences.

This site can help, too (actually a little better):
http://www.puc.state.nh.us/Gas-Steam/ConvFctr.xls

In general, the fuel costs from least to most are natural gas, oil, LPG (i.e. propane), and electric as most expensive. This is for fuel costs alone. You also need to factor in year-to-year maintenance costs. For ongoing maintenance, lowest to highest costs would be electric, natural gas, propane, and oil as most expensive. You'd have to consult costs for recommended annual service in your area.

When we replaced our gas furnace (10?) years ago, we could select from a 70% to 95% efficient furnace. At that time, we determined that the higher initial cost of a 90%+ efficiency would be so long to recoup that we went with an 80%. Up-front costs also varied considerably by vendor / installation company.

Since you're contemplating a system replacement, you would need to factor in system purchase and installation costs. Where is your oil tank? Can it be removed readily? What about disposing of the unused oil? (Around here, that can be a major PITA). Can a truck get in to install a propane "pig"? What about your water heater?

From a purely monetary standpoint, you're going to have to get some figures from 2 or 3 different companies for both propane furnaces and propane suppliers and oil suppliers, each for furnaces of different efficiencies. Then run the numbers yourself for an estimated 25-year life expectancy. Then the biggest test - your crystal ball guess on relative expense of each fuel over the next 25 years. They'll all go up, but which one will go up more?

One final observation. In the upper midwest, most people have converted from oil to either gas or propane. Very few homes are heated with oil. If you've got a realtor friend, talk to him about residential heating -- what's prevalent and what's becoming less so, and why?

Finally, there are other alternatives such as solid fuels (wood, corn, etc) that may be ok here but would be really problematic in a densely populated area like Long Island. Another alternative already mentioned is geothermal (such as a heat pump). It looses efficiency in cold areas, and if the ground under you is hard rock (like I think Long Island is) then it can be very costly and less efficient.

Does your area have an annual home show put on by area home improvement contractors? That can be a prime source to talk with people and start to get some estimates and discussion of advantages /disadvantages.

HTH.
Al

 

[MikDee]

Re: $ Oil VS $ LPG

Just as a point of reference, I had a medium sized 3 bdrm L shaped ranch on L.I. about 1500sq. ft. with a garage, and an unheated basement, and a fairly efficient oil hot water, baseboard, heating system, and one average year I used a kerosene heater (when they were all the rage) just till bedtime, in my liv. rm, din. rm, and kitchen area, and found that I saved $500! with maybe $50 worth of kerosene, But, my wife, and I couldn't stand the fumes anymore. If that was a wood stove, or a pellet stove, I would have done even better! Do you see what I mean now?

 

[levittownnick]

Re: $ Oil VS $ LPG

Great "fuel" for thought gentlemen. Now I have some serious contemplating to do. This was certainly a productive thread, the talent on this forum is nothing short of amazing.

Sincerely,
Nick

 

[mainexile]

Re: $ Oil VS $ LPG

When I looked at heat pump technology a few years ago, you could only use them in relatively warm climates. NY was out of there zone. Taking heat out of the ground in NY was not a viable option either. It required big bucks and a good plot of land or drilling deep wells.

Keep the idea's flowing,
Nick

There have been some recent developments in the heat pump industry. One company has developed a heat pump that has been tested at below 0 degrees farenheit with excellent results. Try this link:

http://blogs.zdnet.com/green/?p=522

 

[levittownnick]

Re: $ Oil VS $ LPG

Back to $ Oil

 

[MikDee]

Re: $ Oil VS $ LPG

Thanks Nick, Just what I needed to know when I go to China to visit!
I don't believe it a Chinese spammer on a boating forum?

 

[aspeck]

Re: $ Oil VS $ LPG

When I looked at heat pump technology a few years ago, you could only use them in relatively warm climates. NY was out of there zone. Taking heat out of the ground in NY was not a viable option either. It required big bucks and a good plot of land or drilling deep wells.

Keep the idea's flowing,
Nick

I live in Central PA, not too different in climate than Levittown ... Geothermal heat pump for my 2300 sq ft of living space required 3 wells drilled to 185 feet each. Total cost of the wells was $1000 each ... $3000 combined. Total cost of the system, including wells, duct work, labor was $13,000 for my heating and air conditioning system. I am now paying approximately $140 per month to heat and cool the house, plus run all my other electric appliances (oven, 2 refrigerators w/ freezers, 1 upright freezer, 2 TVs, projection unit TV, washer, dryer, hot water heater, etc.)

Yep, I am happy!

 

[Bob_VT]

Re: $ Oil VS $ LPG

Art....

Are there 3 wells the same diameter as a water well and is there well casing?

What is the location of the wells?

My water well head is 6' from my back door.... I get 40 gallons a minute (considered to be in the top 5 wells in town) and I am only down 140'

Bob