Ok, sitting here without water into the house, questions for those in the know!

[MTboatguy]

Well, the dread of all dreads happened today and I am a noob on well water systems. We had a new water pump, plumping and well control box put in in 2003, I get home today, the wife says, we ain't got no water. I have checked all of the power connections, they are all tight, this system has a submerged pump at 490 feet, a small control box with a capacitor and relay and a two fuse switch box, I have power coming off the breaker box in the house, I have 240 volts at the fused switch box, where the wires split and one side goes directly into the pressure switch, that leg has 240 volts, and one side goes through the control box which I have no power coming out of, that goes to the pressure switch, what would you check first, the capacitor or the relay?

I know there has to be someone that has a similar system out there!

 

[Tig]

Re: Ok, sitting here without water into the house, questions for those in the know!

The capacitor is there to balance the inductive properties of the control circuit. It prevents arcing when the relay opens. Arcing will burn the relay contacts.
You seem to know your way around electricity but standard warnings always apply. Dangerous voltage present. Always test for power before you touch anything!
Look at the contacts they will be black (maybe only one). If you have a burnishing tool you can clean the contacts up by sliding the tool in and polishing them. I have even used fine emery cloth for this. If this is the problem and you clean it up real good it will be OK for a week or so. Don't wait, replace it. Next time it may fuse shut and leave the pump on.
Pressure switches can also cause problems if they or their feed tube gets clogged by debris.

 

[MTboatguy]

Re: Ok, sitting here without water into the house, questions for those in the know!

I think I figured it out, I have 230 going into the pressure switch and only 110 coming out going to the control box, the pump is a 230 volt 3/4 horse motor, so if it is only getting 110, it is not energizing the relay to start the pump motor..thanks for the help, believe me I always follow safe electrical protocols..

 

[rbh]

Re: Ok, sitting here without water into the house, questions for those in the know!

YUP, sounds like the relay/preasure switch.
I know on ours if I do not give it a fresh air charge every 6 months or so the preasure tank looses all the air to the water (it just absorbs in over time) and it will cycle funny due to the lack of an air charge and burn the contacts.

 

[mommicked]

Re: Ok, sitting here without water into the house, questions for those in the know!

MTboatguy,im no good w elec at all, and have the scars to prove it.I just wanted to say I like the way your wife talks!Is she from the south?good luck w the well.

 

[MTboatguy]

Re: Ok, sitting here without water into the house, questions for those in the know!

Mommicked, nope, she is born and raised Montana, but sometimes you would think she is a sailor and other days, you would figure she is from Georgia, of course I spent a lot of years stationed at Ft. Bragg, NC, so she might have picked up a bit of a drawl!

While we are talking about water systems, I am thinking of re-plumbing and moving the electrical and pressure tank inside the house, heck of a lot easier than crawling under the house when something goes wrong, anybody ever use one of these low profile pressure tanks?

http://www.purewatertreatment.com/ProductPages/Pumps-Pressure-Tanks/tanks-low-profile.htm

I have the perfect spot for it in the pantry, that would be out of the way, and I would not have to deal with that monster steel pressure tank!

Another thing, I will add, and this surprise the heck out of me, for the last 15 years, we have had a static water level of 60 feet below the surface ground level, the well is 497 in depth, and tonight I pulled the cap on the well casing to see if perhaps the well went dry! Much to my surprise the static level is sitting at about 6" below the top of the well casing with is 3 foot about ground level, I can say with all conviction we had a heck of a lot of snow this year and the run off is incredible! I don't think we will see dry ground until at least late August this year, I was wondering why our road looks like a creek bed!

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Ok, sitting here without water into the house, questions for those in the know!

WellMates are decent tanks. The critical factor is the size. You want to find out the ground level GPM of your well pump then size the tank so that it takes at least two minutes to refill the drawdown in the tank,

The chart in your link does not give the drawdown volume for a system operating at 40/60 (desirable) The tank supplier would probably be able to give that to you.

To give you an example of what I mean, an 86 gal WellMate, using a 40/60 pressure switch setting will have about 22 gallons of drawdown water between pump on and pump off. (40/60 psi). If your well pump puts out 10 gpm (at ground/pressure tank level) you divide the 10 gpm into the 22 gallons of drawdown/refill and that gives you a 2.2 minute pump run time.

Any less than that and you are putting undo stress on your well pump. They love to run, they do not like to constantly start up.

All the above assumes that the precharge pressure, in the tank (dry), is set at 2 psi below the pump cut in pressure. If you are running a 30/50 setting you are cheating yourself out of available pressure and flow.

 

[joed]

Re: Ok, sitting here without water into the house, questions for those in the know!

The capacitor is there to balance the inductive properties of the control circuit. It prevents arcing when the relay opens. Arcing will burn the relay contacts.
You seem to know your way around electricity but standard warnings always apply. Dangerous voltage present. Always test for power before you touch anything!
Look at the contacts they will be black (maybe only one). If you have a burnishing tool you can clean the contacts up by sliding the tool in and polishing them. I have even used fine emery cloth for this. If this is the problem and you clean it up real good it will be OK for a week or so. Don't wait, replace it. Next time it may fuse shut and leave the pump on.
Pressure switches can also cause problems if they or their feed tube gets clogged by debris.

I am afraid to say you are wrong with statements about the capacitor. In this case the capacitor is there to run the motor not suppress arcing.

 

[j_martin]

Re: Ok, sitting here without water into the house, questions for those in the know!

Coupla observations.

The capacitor is a phasing capacitor needed to run the motor. If it's bad, the motor won't start, and either burn out or hopefully trip a circuit breaker.

In household wiring, there are 2 110V circuits out of phase with each other by 180?. Another way to look at it is a 220 V circuit with a grounded center tap. Either way, when you come off 2 adjacent breakers, one on each leg, the voltage between them is 220V.

The entire pump switching and power system is at 220V, with the possible but unlikely exception of the relay coil circuit and pressure switch. If you read 110V to the pump, you are probably probing it wrong. It would either be 220V or 0V.

If you don't thoroughly understand what yer looking at, get a pro in there. If you goof, and especially if it's over fused, you could take out the pump itself, which makes the project real expensive.

 

[jeeperman]

Re: Ok, sitting here without water into the house, questions for those in the know!

While we are talking about water systems, I am thinking of re-plumbing and moving the electrical and pressure tank inside the house, heck of a lot easier than crawling under the house when something goes wrong, anybody ever use one of these low profile pressure tanks?

If the only thing to "maintain" on the pressure tank is a recharge of air once and awhile, might be easier to just relocate the fill valve to a easier spot via pipe line.

 

[MTboatguy]

Re: Ok, sitting here without water into the house, questions for those in the know!

Coupla observations.

The capacitor is a phasing capacitor needed to run the motor. If it's bad, the motor won't start, and either burn out or hopefully trip a circuit breaker.

In household wiring, there are 2 110V circuits out of phase with each other by 180?. Another way to look at it is a 220 V circuit with a grounded center tap. Either way, when you come off 2 adjacent breakers, one on each leg, the voltage between them is 220V.

The entire pump switching and power system is at 220V, with the possible but unlikely exception of the relay coil circuit and pressure switch. If you read 110V to the pump, you are probably probing it wrong. It would either be 220V or 0V.

If you don't thoroughly understand what yer looking at, get a pro in there. If you goof, and especially if it's over fused, you could take out the pump itself, which makes the project real expensive.

Thank you for your insight, but I did stop at the company this evening that installed this system and they confirmed exactly what I concluded. We have a pressure switch that has gone bad and not allowing the full electrical system to work correctly.

Thanks again.

 

[MTboatguy]

Re: Ok, sitting here without water into the house, questions for those in the know!

If the only thing to "maintain" on the pressure tank is a recharge of air once and awhile, might be easier to just relocate the fill valve to a easier spot via pipe line.

Nope, not happening, In Montana, with the pressure tank under the house in a crawl space, creates more problems that you ever imagine, I have lost two pressure switches due to frogs crawling up into the housing to get warm and frying themselves across the contacts, we have had suger ants short the system out, moving it inside the house would be the prefered way to solve a lot of these situations!

LOL

 

[cribber]

Re: Ok, sitting here without water into the house, questions for those in the know!

You said "one side goes through the control box which I have no power coming out of" The control box is what my well guy calls an expendable to save the pump. I would just replace the control box and you're good to go for another 5 years or so. Last one I had replaced cost me $150 installed.

 

[MTboatguy]

Re: Ok, sitting here without water into the house, questions for those in the know!

You said "one side goes through the control box which I have no power coming out of" The control box is what my well guy calls an expendable to save the pump. I would just replace the control box and you're good to go for another 5 years or so. Last one I had replaced cost me $150 installed.

I learned a long time ago, to keep a spare of everything except the pressure tank on hand, where I live, it is very difficult to get anyone to come out and look at anything for 6-7 months of the year, I changed out the control box last night, same problem, conferred with the smyptoms this afternoon with the company that installed and has serviced this system since 1967 and they agreed with me, it is the pressure switch..

 

[MTboatguy]

Re: Ok, sitting here without water into the house, questions for those in the know!

Let me add, after I posted my first message last night, I did allot more testing, to come to the conclusion I did..and based on talking to the pros today, I came to the correct conclusion.

Thanks for every bodies help!

 

[jimbo_jwc]

Re: Ok, sitting here without water into the house, questions for those in the know!

Capacitor start for split phase motor , current relay in box takes out starting circuit then runs on other windings . Mine would take out capacitor blow open and alaways keep spare some had thermal overload mounted on top of cap. Its in rental and I would always tell them to watch lights as they would dim when tank and was water logged and pump was cycling to often from lack of air stored on top for reserve pressure/volume . All three motor leads will have conductivity low resistance for 3/4hp
AC capacitor will have conductivity

 

[mommicked]

Re: Ok, sitting here without water into the house, questions for those in the know!

Im glad it sounds like your about to get it fixed.Ive never lived so remote, but ive dreamed about it.I suspect you could get clean water from a stream,or from snow and ice nearby after reading of your damaged boat and the elevation.But the miss's would not like that system for long!

 

[MTboatguy]

Re: Ok, sitting here without water into the house, questions for those in the know!

Well I am happy to report, after checking everything out, consulting with my buds on this website and consulting with the guys that originally drilled this well, changing out the pressure switch, things are back to normal, water is flowing, the hottub bath tub worked great tonight and things are back to good..now on to the next problem, which is the garage roof that I found out has a big crack in it, it will be at least a month before the boat gets pulled out, so I can really figure out the damage that was done, but after a hour soak this evening, and or course a few beers, things are good!

LOL