Pay it or go to court?

TwoBallScrewBall

Lieutenant Commander
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Sep 14, 2003
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Got a ticket last week for disregarding a red signal in philadelphia. $115 plus whatever points there are. It was yellow. <br /><br />Anyone familiar with the philadelphia traffic court? Is it worth my time to go to court to plead not guilty and try to get out of it or get it reduced? With either plea I need to send the $115 in within 10 days, as collateral in the case of a not guility plea. <br /><br />I was approaching an intersection, making a right turn. Light was yellow. Probably turned red as I was in the intersection. Cop was sitting at the intersection, first in line at the light coming from my left. As soon as I made the turn he got behind me and lit me up. <br /><br />Advice? Just pay it? The damn light was yellow.
 

Kiwi Phil

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Jun 23, 2003
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Re: Pay it or go to court?

If it is not going to be too much trouble and cost, then I would turn up and present my side of the story. I am sure not all judges are heartless bustards. <br />If you don't then you know what the outcome is going to be.<br />Cheers<br />Phillip
 

SS MAYFLOAT

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May 17, 2001
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Re: Pay it or go to court?

SN, I've always been told your best chances are going to court. Did he have one of those dash cameras? If so, it maybe good on your behalf. If he didn't, you still may have a chance with the judge. Good luck! :)
 

FLATHEAD

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Re: Pay it or go to court?

You got nothing to lose by going. I had the exact same thing happen to me once, turned red while I was in the intersection. I sent it back saying I'll come to court. The cop never showed for court and I got my money back. I went one other time for a ticket and won that one too. <br /><br />I would fight it.
 

JB

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Re: Pay it or go to court?

Hmmmm. I am no lawyer, but here is what I think:<br /><br />If he was in the lanes to your left he couldn't see the light you saw, only the light for his direction. Most lights don't green up for one direction until after the other has turned red.<br /><br />Check that out. If you do go to court you will need him to testify that he didn't see the light you saw, but made assumptions based on the light he could see.<br /><br />Also, time the light on amber. You might be able to demonstrate that your lane had insufficient warning time to stop before red.<br /><br />Don't contest it based only on your testimony that it was amber when you entered the intersection. You need more of a case than that.<br /><br />What do you have to lose? Court costs. If you post the $115 and don't contest, that's it. If you go to court and lose it's $115 plus costs, which could double the total.<br /><br />If the Officer doesn't want to spend the time in court and doesn't show up, you can probably get a dismissal.<br /><br />Good luck. :)
 

Fly Rod

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Re: Pay it or go to court?

:) I was stopped once about 2 years ago for going thru a yellow light!!! When the cop came to the window, he said that I was suppose to stop!!! I mentioned to him that when I got my license 30 years ago, a yellow light ment to proceed with caution and be prepared to stop!!!<br /><br /><br />He let me go!!!!! And today in Mass. it still means that today!!! Go to your Registry or a drivers education center and read what it means in your state!!! ;) :cool:
 

heycods

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Re: Pay it or go to court?

I keep an eye on the yellow lights, if they have been yellow for a while I am prepared to stop and have already slowed down. I see a lot of folks whos theory seems to be , shoot the gas to it and take the corner on two wheels, I can make it.If such was the case the officer will show up for court. If not the case go to court fight the damx thing and win it. You and I dont wont our insurance to go up for no reason.
 

BoatBuoy

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Re: Pay it or go to court?

Originally posted by heycods:<br /> I see a lot of folks whos theory seems to be , shoot the gas to it and take the corner on two wheels, I can make it.
That's a different offense. Caution lights, commonly called yellow lights, indicate a hazardous situation, namely a transition in traffic flow. Accelerating, rather than slowing, in a caution area, is grounds for a citation as well.
 

Drowned Rat

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Re: Pay it or go to court?

Probably turned red as I was in the intersection
If that was the case then the ticket was justified "technically". If you honestly thought you had enough time to make it through before it turned red, go to court and tell the judge that. Just tell the truth and he may reward your honesty. Plus, as others have said, the policeman may not show up and it'll be dismissed for sure. If you have recent prior violations, I would let it be and just pay it. Anything you say would sound like an excuse to the judge.
 

FLATHEAD

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Re: Pay it or go to court?

Originally posted by JB:<br /><br /><br />What do you have to lose? Court costs. If you post the $115 and don't contest, that's it. If you go to court and lose it's $115 plus costs, which could double the total.<br /><br /><br />Good luck. :)
I'll have to check but I am 99.9% sure you dont have to pay any additional court cost here in Pa. to fight a ticket win or lose. The court cost are added to every single ticket issued in the state. What is a normal 25 dollar fine ends up being over 100 dollars fight it or not. <br /><br />The only bucks you might lose are higher insurance rates depending on your driving record and your carrier. I would go to traffic court, you can only break even or come out ahead.
 
Joined
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Re: Pay it or go to court?

My Cousin Vinny, A Few Good Men. What ever you do don't make it your word against his! The judge may not be heartless but the cop has already stated his positions with regard to where the one fifteen belongs. ;)
 

Drowned Rat

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Re: Pay it or go to court?

You may not have to pay court costs but if the judge is having a bad day or is particularly annoyed, he can increase the fine. (Usually reserved for the exceptionally stupid) Seen it happen, usually with repeat offenders though or somebody fighting a charge that they are, by accident, self-admittedly guilty of.
 

NBE

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Re: Pay it or go to court?

Probably the only way you are going to win, as stated above, is if the cop does not show up in court on that day. Most judges treat a yellow light the same as a red light and if it turns red while you are underneath it, then you have ran the red light. <br /><br />Down here, yellow means you had better be trying to stop and if you go through the intersection, then you have ran the red light, regardless if it turns red while you are under it or after you have passed through.<br /><br />Good luck!
 

18rabbit

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Re: Pay it or go to court?

Traffic tix are kind of a strange animal. In Calif, and I presume similar elsewhere, you have less than an 90% chance or prevailing at the hearing, and less than an 85% of prevailing if you appeal. No other court has such a high conviction rate, and it’s all based on ‘his word vs my word’.<br /><br />If you are not guilty, you have an obligation to yourself and the community to go to court. You prob won’t prevail, but there is a chance the cop won’t show up and if so, the case will be dismissed. Happens all the time. If he does show up, you have served the community by taking a bad cop off the streets for the time it takes him to appear.<br /><br />ASAP – like right now! Write to the agency the cop works for and ask for ALL information pertaining to your citation, including a copy of the cops notes and both sides of your ticket. If the agency doesn’t respond, and the often don’t, none of that can be used at the hearing and you should be able to prevail. In general, cops look stupid on the stand without their notes. If the cop walks in with any papers in his hands, as soon as he speaks, you can/should immediately ‘object.’<br /><br />If you go to the hearing, first thing you will be asked how you plead. This is the ‘arraignment’ part of the hearing. You have a right to be arraigned, a hearing where the charges are read, and you enter a plea. A hearing follows, depending on your plea. You may respond that you have not waived your right to be arraigned within the time limit specified by the state, usually something like 2 or 3-days of your arrest. (You were effectively arrested when the cop decided to issue the citation, and released when you signed it.) You may ask for the case to be dismissed on a due process error, you were not called for a timely arrignment. Might work if you are toward the end of the calendar, might not if you are near the top because other’s in the courtroom may copy your example, and everyone’s tix would be dismissed that day…loss of revenue.<br /><br />Also check your state’s laws regarding a ‘statement of decision’. Should be in your state's civil code. You want to request one. A SOD is a written explanation of what evidence was presented and what laws applied when the commissioner/judge decided your case. It is also used for filing appeals. Judges do not want to issue SODs, but are required to when requested, usually within something like 10-days. It basically makes them accountable for their decisions, not something a lot of commissioner/judges are comfortable with. You can take that SOD and use it when filing an appeal based on the due process error.<br /><br />I encourage you to follow thru with this as far as you can take it. In the grand scheme of things, the cost of losing and paying the fine is nothing compared to the education you will gain of this part of the legal system. You’re paying for it with your tax dollars, might as well jump in and learn what it’s all about. There’s also a certain fear factor that comes with standing before a judge (on appeal), a class of people that can do virtually anything they want with impunity, and speaking your mind. If you are sane, and likeable, don’t be surprised if the tix is tossed on appeal for that reason alone. By going to court in America, you will be swimming thru a cesspool of corruption. Go, and learn about it.<br /><br />Also, I think judges are impressed with people that take the time to learn about the process and procedures, and make honest attempts are defending themselves.
 

jtexas

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Re: Pay it or go to court?

If you tell the court what you told us, then you are guilty. You must be clear of the intersection when the red light illuminates.<br /><br />But JB has a good point...many of the suburbs around me are adding a white light off to the side of intersections that is tied in to light at the same time as the red lights. The cop testifies that he saw the white light illuminate while you were still in the intersection, bang bang case closed pay the fine! No question about line of sight or viewing angle, which you may have in your particular case.<br /><br />Be aware - you have the right to demand a jury trial.<br /><br />Forgot to ask - what's the rules up there on right turn on red...here it's allowed after a full stop, unless signage indicates otherwise.
 

18rabbit

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Re: Pay it or go to court?

There used to be two classes of crime, misdemeanor and felony. With the advent of “privileges” a third class of crime was invented, infractions. Infractions are a lower class than misdemeanors, and you are not entitled to either a jury trial or legal representation for charges of an infraction. Yes, it is a total violation of individual rights protected by the constitution, but that is the “law” as established by the super legislature, i.e. the supreme court. I’m not aware of any laws that allow a state to avoid their obligation to arraign someone for any crime, including infractions.
 

JRJ

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Re: Pay it or go to court?

Were you going too fast to stop for the yellow? Glad no peds stepped out and got in your way :D
 

jtexas

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Re: Pay it or go to court?

18R - they don't have traffic court lawyers out there? Around here they advertise on billboards & TV - usually they bundle up their clients' tickets & make a bulk deal with the court - some $$ for dismissal, usually deferred adjudication.
 
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Re: Pay it or go to court?

Originally posted by jtexas:<br /> If you tell the court what you told us, then you are guilty. You must be clear of the intersection when the red light illuminates.<br /><br />But JB has a good point...many of the suburbs around me are adding a white light off to the side of intersections that is tied in to light at the same time as the red lights. The cop testifies that he saw the white light illuminate while you were still in the intersection, bang bang case closed pay the fine! No question about line of sight or viewing angle, which you may have in your particular case.<br /><br />Be aware - you have the right to demand a jury trial.<br /><br />Forgot to ask - what's the rules up there on right turn on red...here it's allowed after a full stop, unless signage indicates otherwise.
Aux Contraire, It depends on what he cited you for...............If he cited for driving with undue caution - perhaps..........If it is a matter of the condition of the light then you are innocent, at least in CA..........Whatever the condition of the light when you entered the intersection it remains the condition of the light until you leave the intersection.......<br /><br />Technowhatever you decide to do please post. With all the advise form the latrine Lawyers (paraphrased)it will be interesting to know the outcome............... Gotta fix that period again. ;) :D <br />Key to your defense is what you said to the officer when he wrote the ticket. He may lie about the particulars of the ifraction. He will not lie about what you said. If you tried to cop a plea or questioned his integrity at the time he will be ready for you. I have had a personal experience where the officer lied to make his action justifiable.
 

Drowned Rat

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Re: Pay it or go to court?

Take a look at what it says for a yellow light. This is out of the PA drivers manual. web page <br /><br />It seems to me that the only person that knows whether you could stop safely or not is you. The cop can't say that. So technowhatever may have a point. As long as it was yellow when you entered the intersection, you can say you couldn't safely stop in time when the light turned yellow, (already too close to the intersection). It's hard to argue with the state's own manual. Other than this, I like 18R's advice. It almost makes me want to go get a traffic ticket just to see if I can get out of it. :D
 
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