Random miss and kicking / rough idle

mike__b

Seaman
Joined
Oct 21, 2010
Messages
64
I have a 1993 40HP Evinrude. The motor starts up easy, other than needing to press the primer every few seconds when its a cold start for 15 seconds or it will die again. It seems to run good at WOT and moderate RPMs, with a smooth feel and sound.

However, I do notice a few things that through all my work, have not gone away. First, when running at a slow idle, the motor will kick every few seconds (3-10) more than just normal vibration. Running on muffs out of water, you can "see" the kick jolt the motor. It also sounds like there could be a slight miss during idle, and I suspect that might be related to the kick. But overall, idle sounds smooth. The miss becomes more apparent sometimes during a slow rev-up from idle. For example, I've had this happen a few times on the water where I'm running at high speed, slow down for a few seconds then slowly pickup speed to a moderate level. There might be a miss, almost like a harmonic response it sounds like "pop pop pop pop" where it sounds normal in-between the pops. To get rid of it, I slow back down to idle and speed up again. Usually a second time fixes it. The rough idle at the lowest idle can kill the motor while under load.

Here is the maintenance I've done in the past year that hasn't fixed the issue.

Carbs removed and cleaned, jets cleaned, new gaskets.
New fuel hoses from the carbs to the pump.
New plugs.
Disconnected all electrical connections made on the terminal block near the CDI.

When I cleaned the electrical connections near the cdi, I noticed one of the yellow wire connections on the terminal bar had the screw stripping out the plastic. Basically, whoever last assembled it torqued that screw too much and it augured out some plastic. It isn't as strong of connection as it should be. I used a light coating of dielectric grease to help prevent further corrosion.

I also did a link and sync per my Clymers book after cleaning the carbs. Long story short, it ran horrible after following the procedure. The carbs are in sync, but basically the timing on the boat is advanced significantly in my opinion to obtain a decent idle.

I've run the motor with one plug at a time disconnected to see if I could tell which cylinder was missing, but the motor seemed to run ok with either cylinder disconnected.

Does any one else have any ideas as to what may be the cause of these issues, and are they related?

I was thinking the electrical system may be suspect. Is there a way to test the power pack and stator? Maybe the timing advance to obtain a good idle is causing the miss at higher RPMs? I have a tinytach as well that monitors one of the plug wires, it too seems to jump around (500-750) like there is a miss during idle, but it isn't designed for that, its just a digital tach.

TIA.
 

Cady8special

Seaman
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
64
Re: Random miss and kicking / rough idle

Are your butterflies closed at idle? I had mine stick open once and had a similar experience.
 

71Windsor

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
286
Re: Random miss and kicking / rough idle

I've had a similar issue mine would do the same but sounded like a sneeze. Pulled the carbs and did a quick once over cleaning and reset the needle it went away.
 

mike__b

Seaman
Joined
Oct 21, 2010
Messages
64
Re: Random miss and kicking / rough idle

I might try resetting the needles, but like I said, I pulled these carbs, soaked them in cleaner, and reset the needles last fall. The issue existed before cleaning the carbs and after.

When I performed the link and sync, the butterflies are now nearly closed at idle, but I'd say they are both a hair open. The process of the link and sync led me there, as I advanced the timing last. But I might try that, but it doesn't really explain the harmonic response above 1000 rpms as I throttle up. I should really get an audio recording of it. I can sometimes duplicate it in neutral with muffs on.
 

akdiesel

Cadet
Joined
May 16, 2011
Messages
19
Re: Random miss and kicking / rough idle

I just fixed this same problem on my motor today (97 40hp). It acted like that all last year kicking and sneezeing but ran good other than that at idle. Then became hard to start or sometimes wouldn't start for 30 min. Finally tested the ignition system yesterday, and the power pack was dead. The only reason I tested it was because I had no spark when I went to run it on sunday. Check your ignition system its quite easy. There is a link on here somewhere for CDI troubleshooting
 

Cady8special

Seaman
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
64
Re: Random miss and kicking / rough idle

I might try resetting the needles, but like I said, I pulled these carbs, soaked them in cleaner, and reset the needles last fall. The issue existed before cleaning the carbs and after.

When I performed the link and sync, the butterflies are now nearly closed at idle, but I'd say they are both a hair open. The process of the link and sync led me there, as I advanced the timing last. But I might try that, but it doesn't really explain the harmonic response above 1000 rpms as I throttle up. I should really get an audio recording of it. I can sometimes duplicate it in neutral with muffs on.

Hmm, when I had the problem they were stuck open almost half way at idle. So the carbs were getting half throttle worth of air, with only an idles worth of gas. I doubt the butterflies being open a crack would mess you up that bad.
 

mike__b

Seaman
Joined
Oct 21, 2010
Messages
64
Re: Random miss and kicking / rough idle

Well, I did a resistance test across the stator's yellow and yellow/grey leads. It read 6.5 ohms but my book says it should be 0.5 ohms. Are the stator assemblies only for sale as a whole unit? Are there any other electrical tests anyone recommends?
 

mike__b

Seaman
Joined
Oct 21, 2010
Messages
64
Re: Random miss and kicking / rough idle

Well, after reviewing some diagrams, I think the stator wires I tested are only for the rectifier. Interestingly, I tested the voltage between the yellow and yellow/gray wires and it was roughly 12 Vrms. Then I noticed that those wires go to the rectifier only, which shouldn't affect my spark. I'm still not sure on the 6 ohms reading and what that means.

My DMM will read rms values for frequencies up to 1 kHz, so I think I can use it to calculate the voltage at the power pack. I noticed the orange/blue and orange/green supply the power pack. I'm assuming these are voltage between each wire and ground? Are these wires voltage 180 degrees out of phase?
 

Lil' Johnson

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Jul 13, 2008
Messages
36
Re: Random miss and kicking / rough idle

The orange/blue and orange/green wires are the primary coil wires FROM the power pack to the ignition coils. Green(grass) for lower coil and blue(sky) for top coil. Sounds like timing could possibly be too far advanced, try backing it off. The "harmonic" sounds could be preignition(pinging). Check the connections where the orange/green and orange/blue wires connect to the ignition coils, they are prone to corrosion sometimes. Also, unless you have a Fluke 18something 7 or 9 I think, which is like a $650 meter, it cannot read the voltages needed to diagnose the ignition components because it isn't fast enough even though it is true rms. I have a Fluke 179 true rms and it won't do it. You can purchase a dva meter or adaptor for your meter. There are diagrams out there to make your own adaptor as well.
 

mike__b

Seaman
Joined
Oct 21, 2010
Messages
64
Re: Random miss and kicking / rough idle

The orange/blue and orange/green wires are the primary coil wires FROM the power pack to the ignition coils. Green(grass) for lower coil and blue(sky) for top coil. Sounds like timing could possibly be too far advanced, try backing it off. The "harmonic" sounds could be preignition(pinging). Check the connections where the orange/green and orange/blue wires connect to the ignition coils, they are prone to corrosion sometimes. Also, unless you have a Fluke 18something 7 or 9 I think, which is like a $650 meter, it cannot read the voltages needed to diagnose the ignition components because it isn't fast enough even though it is true rms. I have a Fluke 179 true rms and it won't do it. You can purchase a dva meter or adaptor for your meter. There are diagrams out there to make your own adaptor as well.

Well, you should be able to multiply any rms voltage by sqrt(2) or 1.4 to obtain peak voltage. Or sqrt(3) for a triangle wave. The reason my dmm won't work is because it supports frequencies > 50 Hz. The AC from the stator will be rpm in theory, which at idle will be around 10 Hz.

I was able to do a spark test today with adjustable spark testers. When I held in the start button, both sparks were good and strong. I then ran the motor with one plug wire at a time hooked to the gap tester. When running with the bottom disconnected, you could see intermittent misses where there would be no spark. This coincided with a complete hiccup in the motor, meaning the top plug was failing to fire then as well. I wish I knew if that meant a bad stator, power pack, or coil.
 

mike__b

Seaman
Joined
Oct 21, 2010
Messages
64
Re: Random miss and kicking / rough idle

I used the CDI troubleshooting guide and came up with the following measurements. I haven't built a DVA adapter yet, but I'm going to for those lower frequency values. After figuring the number of coils in the stator, I think the AC values are near the frequency range of my meter, I've adjusted the values from rms to peak. I'll recheck with a DVA as well.

Other than the Orange/blue - Orange/green wires, I have no good way to test the other wires while connected as the guide suggests. They are in a sealed rubber connector. I need a DVA to test the coil / power pack output.

Voltages (disconnected)
Orange - Orange/black 167 V ( Spec is 45-120 V) (stator)
Brown - Brown/yellow 296 V (Spec is 150-400 V) (stator)
White - Blue 0.16 V (Spec is 0.6 V) (timing base) (this might be below the frequency threshold of my meter)
White - Blue 0.16 V (Spec is 0.6 V) (timing base) (this might be below the frequency threshold of my meter)


Resistance
White - Blue 40 ohms (Spec is 25-30) (timing base)
White - Green 39 ohms (Spec is 25-30) (timing base)
Orange - Orange/black 440 ohms (Spec is 450-550) (stator)
Brown - Brown/yellow 840 ohms (Spec is 450-550) (stator)
Blue - Orange/blue 154 ohms (Spec is 110) (power pack)
Green - Orange/green 148 ohms (Spec is 110) (power pack)
White - gnd 1.1 ohms (Spec is short) (power pack)

So basically, every component is out of spec for resistance.
 

akdiesel

Cadet
Joined
May 16, 2011
Messages
19
Re: Random miss and kicking / rough idle

Yes you need a DVA all you do is unhook the incoming plug and test the power going in (before the power pack) per the CDI manual (Brown to Brown/yellow ect) that will tell you if your incoming power is good if it is hook it all back up and unplug the out going plugs and do the same and that will tell you if the power pack is bad. You should really check everything with a DVA it will give you a more accurate reading. If your stator and timer base readings are bad its going to throw off your power pack readings as well.
 

mike__b

Seaman
Joined
Oct 21, 2010
Messages
64
Re: Random miss and kicking / rough idle

I retested with the DVA adapter I made. I'm still not sure how to test any of the stator to timing base wires while "connected" as they are in a rubber connector. I might be able to shove my test leads in from behind, but I'm afraid I might damage the connector. Otherwise, there is no other place that the wires are exposed. To me connected implies running since the engine will start if everything is connected and I crank it over.

When I tested the output from the power pack while connected to the coil I didn't notice any fluctuation or drop. But the roughness was still there.

The wires after the power pack are different, they feed the coil and aren't the same orange wires. I'm still not sure what may be bad. My neighbor thinks the motor runs fine, but I definitely notice the kicking, especially since its a tiller model. I know the resistance of the brown/yellow wires are out of spec, but the voltage coming out seems fine.

I'm using the guide here: http://issuu.com/cdielectronics/docs/troubleshootingguide on page 39.

Voltages (disconnected)
Orange - Orange/black 150 V ( Spec is 45-120 V) (stator)
Brown - Brown/yellow 364 V (Spec is 150-400 V) (stator)
White - Blue 1.8 V (Spec is .6 V) (timing base)
White - Blue 1.4 V (Spec is .6 V) (timing base)

Voltages (connected, running)
Orange/blue - gnd 198 V (spec says >= 150) (power pack output)
Orange/green - gnd 194 V (spec says >= 150) (power pack output)

Resistance
White - Blue 40 ohms (Spec is 25-30) (timing base)
White - Green 39 ohms (Spec is 25-30) (timing base)
Orange - Orange/black 440 (Spec is 450-550) (stator)
Brown - Brown/yellow 840 (Spec is 450-550) (stator)
Blue - Orange/blue 154 (Spec is 110) (power pack)
Green - Orange/green 148 (Spec is 110) (power pack)
White - gnd 1.1 ohms (Spec is short) (power pack)

I tested additional disconnected voltages and were in spec. I do not see a black/white or white/black wire as described in the troubleshooting guide.

I guess I need someone's opinion on what the problem may or may not be based on these tests?
 

akdiesel

Cadet
Joined
May 16, 2011
Messages
19
Re: Random miss and kicking / rough idle

Un hook the plugs coming in and put the leads in the holes crank it over and take the reading then repeat for the next set of wires ect. Put them back together unhook outgoing plugs stick your leads in crank it over take readings ect. Hook it back up pull off coil leads stick + in one ground out the other and crank over then repeat with the other lead.

I retested with the DVA adapter I made. I'm still not sure how to test any of the stator to timing base while "connected" as they are in a rubber connector. I might be able to shove my test leads in from behind, but I'm afraid I might damage the connector. Otherwise, there is no other place that the wires are exposed. To me connected implies running since the engine will start if everything is connected and I crank it over.

When I tested the output from the power pack while connected to the coil I didn't notice any fluctuation or drop. But the roughness was still there.

The wires after the power pack are different, they feed the coil and aren't the same orange wires. I'm still not sure what may be bad. My neighbor thinks the motor runs fine, but I definitely notice the kicking, especially since its a tiller model. I know the resistance of the brown/yellow wires are out of spec, but the voltage coming out seems fine.

I'm using the guide here: http://issuu.com/cdielectronics/docs/troubleshootingguide on page 39.

Voltages (disconnected)
Orange - Orange/black 150 V ( Spec is 45-120 V) (stator)
Brown - Brown/yellow 364 V (Spec is 150-400 V) (stator)
White - Blue 1.8 V (Spec is .6 V) (timing base)
White - Blue 1.4 V (Spec is .6 V) (timing base)

Voltages (connected, running)
Orange/blue - gnd 198 V (spec says >= 150) (power pack output)
Orange/green - gnd 194 V (spec says >= 150) (power pack output)
 

mike__b

Seaman
Joined
Oct 21, 2010
Messages
64
Re: Random miss and kicking / rough idle

Un hook the plugs coming in and put the leads in the holes crank it over and take the reading then repeat for the next set of wires ect. Put them back together unhook outgoing plugs stick your leads in crank it over take readings ect. Hook it back up pull off coil leads stick + in one ground out the other and crank over then repeat with the other lead.

Maybe my motor is different than others. I have two connectors coming IN to the power pack. I can disconnect there and measure the output of the stator and timing base. These must be disconnected. If I plug them back in, there is no standard way to measure them while connected. I can measure the OUTPUT of the power pack as that is just a snap connector on the coils. But the CDI troubleshooting guide says to measure the stator while connected (to the power pack I assume) as well.

You say to "unhook outgoing plugs", but I have none. Two sets of plugs go into the power pack (stator and timing base), and then two wires (coils), a ground and a temp switch wire leave the power pack.

Stator -> Power Pack -> coils
Timing Base -^
 

mike__b

Seaman
Joined
Oct 21, 2010
Messages
64
Re: Random miss and kicking / rough idle

Here is a video of the motor running. Notice the significant rough idle. Still clueless as to what the issue may be.

In the beginning I'm just switching between throttle all the way down, and giving it a little throttle to show the difference.

At around 1:35 I put it into neutral for a minute.

Click on the image for the video.

 

mike__b

Seaman
Joined
Oct 21, 2010
Messages
64
Re: Random miss and kicking / rough idle

No, I've run through some additional tests including testing compression and readjusting my timing. As I said, my spark advance was far advanced for idle to run and not die. When I did the WOT timing procedure I was able to find my timing was around 10 degrees and I adjusted to 15 degrees. Spec for my motor is 18-20 degrees but I subtracted 4 degrees. Spec for idle is 1-5 degrees, I retarded it to around 4 degrees.

Unfortunately that didn't help with the rough idle, but maybe it increased my rpm range which was low. I haven't gotten a chance to test it yet.
 
Top