Read my lips...MORE TAXES !

[Homerr]

Taxes and more taxes...And they say it's only 'temporary'<br /><br />Some of you might have heard about this today. I can't believe it actually passed:<br /><br /> http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/front_page/1053519049278300.xml <br /><br />A clip from the article:<br /><br />The new tax will lead to "a mass exodus of residents and businesses from Multnomah County," McIntire said at a gathering of tax opponents at Libertarian Party headquarters in Beaverton. "Some will get out as fast as they can and others are stuck." <br /><br />------------------------------------<br /><br />You can bet your bottom dollar they will not only try this in other Oregon counties, but in other states as well.<br />I'll be on that train out of town too. I don't really care where I'd move to, as long as it is away from the greedy ****** (fill in the appropriate colorful metaphor)<br /><br />Heck, maybe I should just quit my job, and go on welfare? They keep this taxing up and that's exactly what will happen to some of us. <br /><br />-------------------------------------------<br />I think the people are finally starting to wake up (well, some of us) and ask where all the money has gone for the schools. <br />We voted down a big measure last January, (measure 28), and now the state is trying to make it sound so horrible that everything is going to come to an end if they don't get the taxes.<br /><br />I still have to wonder why this happened? We've had plenty of money before? Where has it gone?<br /><br />H.

 

[marty_scher]

Re: Read my lips...MORE TAXES !

It's a regret that you are upset Homerr, but what's not to believe?<br /><br />It looks like a large number of voters turned out to pass a temporary tax they considered important to have. Good schools are an investment in the community and apparently the voters are willing to pony-up.<br /><br />Can't speak for Oregonians, but I would be hard-pressed to pack up and move over a few hundred bucks, especially if the tax may be adopted elsewhere.<br /><br />Concerning the states having plenty of money, there probably is not a government entity in the country, that has not burned through the .com surpluses of recent years and are now running in deficit mode.<br /><br />The best that you can hope for is that the school taxes take care of the schools.<br /><br />Marty

 

[Homerr]

Re: Read my lips...MORE TAXES !

That's just it Marty...I doubt it will.<br /><br />Yes, the schools are important. That's a no brainer... BUT... They still haven't explained why the deficit, and where the money went. That's what chaps me.<br /><br />The funny part is...'It's only temporary' they say... Uh huh..sure it is... <br /><br />Did you hear about another state official (a judge in Klamath Falls Oregon) that got busted for taking state money and putting it into HIS business account?<br /><br />No siree...No dishonesty 'round these parts...<br /><br />Not just taxes makes me want to leave...It's the whole Oregon politics. Seems like everyone wants taxes from the working man trying to support his family. <br />Kinda wish I could roll back time to the old West or something. The only problem with that is, I'd have a hard time finding gas for my boat! <br /><br />LOL!<br /><br />H.

 

[Jack Shellac]

Re: Read my lips...MORE TAXES !

Thats the problem, Homerr. Every time you pick up the paper there's something in it about some lowlife politician stealing or wasting tax money to buy himself back into office. We voted to raise property taxes two years ago to solve the school problem FOREVER and they're already back claiming not enough money for schools. It gets disgusting.

 

[ebbtide176]

Re: Read my lips...MORE TAXES !

sorry for your tax 'increase'. if that's the only thing your state is taxing you on, feel lucky you don't live in GA. i could move to TN or AL and avoid most of $$$ i pay to be here.<br /><br />hope it turns out for the best. (notice: i didn't make any flames along partylines )

 

[Cobotr]

Re: Read my lips...MORE TAXES !

It's always easier to grab more money from the taxpayer and throw the money at a problem than to make them accountable to make do, like the rest of us have to do. That includes the schools, they have one of the best SCAMS going, as well as some of the best propaganda.

 

[plywoody]

Re: Read my lips...MORE TAXES !

A good share of the money went to decreased revenue on State DNR lands and BLM lands with reduced timber sales--It's been that way for a while, but it finally caught up to them. Virtually all of that revenue was earmarked to schools. Politicians loved it, of course, because they could just increase timber sales volume to raise revenue for the schools. They can no longer do that, as the timber base is no longer there.<br /><br />And of course, an increased unemployment rate. some of which comes from those same reductions in timber sales, which causes decreased employment in the timber industry generally.<br /><br />Frankly, I think you would see a bigger business exodus if the schools go down the tube--Businesses like employable graduates, and employees like decent schools.

 

[dkondelik]

Re: Read my lips...MORE TAXES !

don't know about the public schools in Oregon but in Indiana (and Illinois), many hundreds of millions of dollar$ come from lotteries and property taxes, to the average cost of $8-$10K per student. with this amount of money, one might think that the schools are flush with cash. BUT,............ the beaurocrats gobble it al up,... to the point where courses are being dropped and teachers are being released. seems that around here, between superintendents, multiple assistant superintendents, multiple directors and assistant directors, all making 6-figures, the school systems have implemented approximatley 1 supervisor (listed above) for every two employees (teachers).<br /><br />Beaurocratic waste at its best. looks like great inspiration for vouchers to me.<br /><br />ply?

 

[FLATHEAD]

Re: Read my lips...MORE TAXES !

Homerr, The school district I work for just passed a one hundred and fifty million dollar budget. Guess where 85% of that money goes? That’s right salaries. That leaves the rest to be spent on facilities and educational needs. All the money is brought in by property tax and a 1% earned income tax. I see an increase in my school tax every year. I agree with Klondike it is bureaucracy at it’s best. The starting rate for a teacher here is over 50,000 per year and the top rate is over 85,000 for 187 days work. Where do you draw the line. Not to mention the outrageous salaries,car allowance,expense accounts of the top heavy administration.

 

[plywoody]

Re: Read my lips...MORE TAXES !

I don't understand the leap from an alleged mismanaged school to vouchers.<br /><br />Why not hire someone to manage the schools properly? Businesses hire people to manage businesses all the time.. Why should schools be different?<br /><br />Why not fix what is wrong, instead of throwing out everything for something brand new.<br /><br />Schools are not that tough to keep in control, if you want to. Statistically, you can track dollars spent for administration per FTE student, as well as per front-line teacher, or even per janitor if you like. There should be acceptable standards established, and variances to those standards justifed or fixed.<br /><br />You can do the same thing for special ed, or whatever it is you want.<br /><br />And, of course, all tracked with the performance of the school and the students itself.<br /><br />As far as teacher salaries go, overall, there is a teacher shortage (I have no idea of individual states) Here in the west many places are offering signing bonuses for qualified math and science teachers, for example. I really doubt that lowering salaries is going to make our schools better.

 

[dkondelik]

Re: Read my lips...MORE TAXES !

hi ply,<br /><br />good to see you here.<br /><br />I have NO complaint with teachers earning a living. where i live, the teachers are underpaid but the myriad mid level managers are all WAY OVER PAID. and guess what? THEY are the system and THEY are not going to cut there own throats. THEY are surely not going to "FIX" the problem.<br /><br />Vouchers on the other hand,(and your gonna HATE this part) in a FREE MARKET, would force the system to either fix itself or become obsolete. The result would be what I /we are looking for. a QUALITY education for the children (I have 5) at a much more reasonable cost then the lack of eduaction that we are presently paying for.<br /><br />Case in point: i cannot afford to do this but, a good private school in my neighborhood is approximatley $5K / yr / kid vs the $8K/yr/kid spent in the public school system. I wont bore you with the details here but you can wrest-assured that the puplic school is FAILing miserably at educating 2 of my kids. not in ayway entirely the teachers fault. Teacher cannot spend enough time with 38 to 45 kids in the elementary school class room. yet, you can bet that the 17 administrators of the school are all doing quite well thank you.<br /><br />WHAT WOULD YOU PROPOSE to "FIX" the pub-ed sytem here?<br /><br />Please don't race off on some irrelevant tangent.

 

[Cobotr]

Re: Read my lips...MORE TAXES !

"Why not hire someone to manage the schools properly? Businesses hire people to manage businesses all the time.. Why should schools be different?" As posted above.<br /><br />The sad reality is, is that they already have people tasked to do this. But it is far easier, with the help of the unions and certain politicians to go after more tax money rather than make the system run efficiently. You hear the rhetoric all the time about how we must increase taxes to take care of the kids. Meaning that if you don't vote to raise taxes, you don't care about the kids.<br /><br />Why do you think that they (unions and administrators) hate vouchers? It's about accountability, something they don't want.<br /><br />Contrary (another myth) to belief, teachers ARE paid well, (I know several who own their own airplanes or HUGE cruisers) and have excellent benefits and retirement packages. Do the math, will you retire getting continued salary equal to 75% of your highest pay?

 

[plywoody]

Re: Read my lips...MORE TAXES !

I don't buy it that schools cannot be fixed. Get yourself elected to the school board, or at least get in touch with current school board members, get a copy of their budget and what budget analysis they've done (it should be extensive--if it's not, find out why not) etc. The administrators do not make final decisions. School boards do, and they are made up of citizens. I've been on a school board before, and if they will elect me, they'll elect dang near anyone.<br /><br />Finally, re vouchers and private schools. The advantage private schools have is that they can pick and choose who they will or won't admit. Not every child costs the same to educate, but there is a federal law that says that all children must be offered a reasonable educational opportunity.<br /><br />I could run a private school, charge half the going rate of what public schools cost, and as long as I picked the right kids with the right parents that could afford to supplement some materials from time to time, I could run it profitably.<br /><br />No private school is going to take on special ed cases, or even difficult cases. It will result in an even greater disparity in the population between the haves and have nots, in my opinion.

 

[plywoody]

Re: Read my lips...MORE TAXES !

Saving money on schools.<br /><br />I've long thought that you could save tons of money on schools by running them in shifts--say a day shift and an afternoon shift.<br /><br />One building, one principal, maybe an extra vice principal or two, a few extra nurses and secretaries and the like, and you could educate twice the number of kids for a whole lot less money per kid. There are all sorts of ways to make schools work.<br />Small neighborhood schools are great, but they are not an efficient economic model. If we want them, great, but we better be prepared to pay for them.

 

[wvit100]

Re: Read my lips...MORE TAXES !

I don't believe you can compare the public schools to private schools, it's like comparing apples and oranges. For one the children in private schools obviously have a great deal more support from parents than the large majority of kids in public schools. The kids wouldn't be in private school if this weren't true. These kids with parental support will, as a group, do better in school and have social problems.<br /><br />Parent involvement in the childrens education is a huge part of how successful the kids will be. Go to any public school parent/teacher conference day, the parents that are there are for the most part the parents whose kids aren't having the problems. The kids with bad grades and problems in school won't be there and niether will their parents.

 

[wvit100]

Re: Read my lips...MORE TAXES !

I should have said that the children with parental support will have less social problems.

 

[dkondelik]

Re: Read my lips...MORE TAXES !

PLy,<br /><br />I admit it. you lost me here.<br /><br />"No private school is going to take on special ed cases, or even difficult cases. It will result in an even greater disparity in the population between the haves and have nots, in my opinion."<br /><br />Huh? What will? If your refering to vouchers, it's a good thing your moving. Here in South Central Indiana, I am only familiar with two of the private schools and if I'm not mistaken, they both accept "special" students.<br /><br />AND<br /><br />Why should I get myself elected to a school board to fix a broken system WHEN there are perfectly good educational institutions around. I would far prefer MY tax dollars that currently feed a failing system, optioned to a functional environment. Heck the money is there. the politicians just wont let it be used as intended,.... FOR EDUCATION. instead it is continually burned in the beaurocratic incinerator.

 

[Cobotr]

Re: Read my lips...MORE TAXES !

"re vouchers and private schools. The advantage private schools have is that they can pick and choose who they will or won't admit. Not every child costs the same to educate, but there is a federal law that says that all children must be offered a reasonable educational opportunity."<br /><br />A common misconception is that vouchers can only be used to move your child from public to private. The way it works here is that every school goes through a rating process. If your kid is in a school that's rated low, you pull your kid, put him/her into a better ranked public or private school with the voucher. Eventually, the schools that continue to rate poorly will loose their ability to be a public school and either close or become a charter school. Accountability!<br /><br />Contrary to belief, there are lots of schools that are able to turn things around when people are confronted with loosing their jobs due to non-performance. There are also lots of schools in some of the worst areas in the country that have turned things around and are among the best in the nation.<br /><br />Some of it is about taking the schools back from the students. Some of it is getting administrators not to be complacent. And it has little to do with cost per student as the unions would like you to believe. It does include getting people who want to do the job, not the politics. Example: Teachers in Boulder that take their kids out on the teachers picket lines during class to show the public that the little kids support them.

 

[plywoody]

Re: Read my lips...MORE TAXES !

You are wrong about the special ed kids and private schools. My daughter was in private school, until she had a medical problem that left her blind. The private school suggested we enroll her elsewhere, as they could not afford the extra cost, nor could we. No big deal. She's doing well, and they were polite and accurate. They could not offer her a proper education. I have no idea what it cost to educate her, but I am very glad that the public schools she went to had a good mix of students of all ability levels. We had no choice of where to enroll her, and had to go to a school that offered the services she required.<br /><br />And I get really confused by this voucher argument. On the one hand, you suggest that it is because the schools waste money on administration costs that they are failures, and then you folks suggest that it is a motivational problem and not a money problem, or an accountability problem, rather than a money problem. <br /><br />I get the feeling what you want is for taxpayers to pay for your child to go to a private, probably religious, school. No thank you. I don't want my tax dollars to support any church or religion, or other private school. I have nothing against these schools at all, my kids went for a time to a parochial school--I just don't want my tax money to support them.<br /><br />If you want to mix and match public schools, and be able to move kids from one public school to another based on whatever criteria is chosen, that's fine. You sure should not need a "voucher" program to accomplish that.

 

[dkondelik]

Re: Read my lips...MORE TAXES !

Ply,<br /><br />if i may,<br /><br />"And I get really confused by this voucher argument. On the one hand, you suggest that it is because the schools waste money on administration costs that they are failures, and then you folks suggest that it is a motivational problem and not a money problem, or an accountability problem, rather than a money problem."<br /><br />SAME THING!, it's not a money problem for the school systems. at nearly $10K / student, w/ 35kids per class room, that nearly $350K/class room. OBVIOUSLY,..... not a money problem <br /><br />AND<br />from what i can see, that's way too much money for BABY SITTING. for that kind of money, there ought to be an education in there.