repeated starting problems with 96 Force 40hp

[Craig_WV]

I bought a 96 Force 40hp three summers ago on a pontoon. So far I have had three solenoids and two starters on the motor. I have read this forum for new ideas onthe problem now... I am asking. At first it started fine. Then it would only click. 1sr solenoid re placed. Then the starter would spin but not engage, few drops of 3 n1 oil fixed that. Second summer, the starter locked up engaged in the flywheel. Replaced starter. Last day of boating, while I was waay down the lake, the starter engaged in the flywheel and would not disengage after engine started and continued until battery was disconnected, burning fingers in the process. The marina repair guy replaced starter and solenoid. This year I have been at the lade every weekend since end of April. Last weekend no start, back to the click. The starter bendix was engaged wit the fly wheel. Once I got that loose, it still just clicks like another solenoid. It occurs to me I am replacing parts but not fixing the problem. Could the rectifier be bad and sending AC into the system? I noticed at running RPMs the starter actually spins, and sometimes jumps up to bump the fly wheel. that does not seem normal. I have polished connectors, cleaned terminals and charged/replace batteries. I'm stuck and the marina repair man is hiding from me. Ideas...anthing?

 

[Jiggz]

No Title

Based from your accounts, "I noticed at running RPMs the starter actually spins, and sometimes jumps up to bump the fly wheel. that does not seem normal. ", this will indicate there is something wrong with the wiring either from the solenoid coil (two small wires that control the starter solenoid) to the ignition switch. With a competent electrician or someone with a good knowledge of the boat wiring can check for cross wires or a faulty ignition switch. If you have a working knowledge of electrical wiring you can do so especially if you have a wiring diagram. If you do not have one, I've attached one but you will need to save it to your computer and print it enlarged to be readable.

One of the most common ways that quickly destroys a starter unit is if it continues to ran and engaged with the flywheel with the motor running. In the same way, the solenoid can also burn as both units (starter and solenoid) are not designed for continuous use.

From a personal point of view, I would start with the ignition switch by doing resistance checks between terminals. To give you an idea how the ignition sw works, the contacts that closes and opens with each position are as follows:
OFF - both M contacts are closed
ON - M contacts are opened while the I contact closes with the B contact to supply power to auxilliaries including fuel primer
START - in addition to the "ON" contacts position, the S contact closes with the B contact to supply power to the starter solenoid coil, which in turn closes the large terminals on the solenoid powering the starter
CHOKE (when pushed) - closes the C contact with the B contact to power up the choke mechanism.

Note on the wiring diagram that the battery, rectifier and a fuse protection are commonly connected to the large (hot side) of the starter solenoid. Through the fuse the ignition switch gets it battery power to the B terminal and when placed in start position connects the S terminal thus providing power to the starter solenoid and to ground completes its ckt. This is supposed to be the only way the starter should ever power up. Now if the ignition switch has loose internals and closes the S contacts through vibration, then the ignition switch needs to be replaced. But do not assume instead test by doing the resistance test and jiggling the unit to see if it will close the S contact by itself.

In addition, Double check the wirings making sure proper wires are connected to the proper terminals on the ignition switch.

 

[Craig_WV]

Jiggz, thank you for your reply, and attachment. Headed over to the lake later to test some connections, but I can tell you now there are more wires on my solenoid than are shown in the diagram. I will need to trace those out and see what they are....and I have suspected the switch for another reason so this will give me a good way to test it. I'm not a mechanic, nor electronics expert, but have tools and a volt meter. (and fire extinguisher)...thank you and will update.

craig

 

[Jiggz]

Well, not shown in the diagram is the red cable connected on the load side of the solenoid and to the starter which is usually the same size as the red positive battery cable (shown). On some systems, the trim and tilt is also fed directly from the hot side of the solenoid thus enabling to tilt the motor without having to turn on the ignition switch.

 

[MickLovin]

Ignition switch, has happened to me the exact same thing and have posted about it. I would get a ping when I put it into gear, which I found to be the starter spinning and bump up to hit the flywheel when put into gear. I played with the ignition switch and found it sticking between start and run holding the starter in untill I notched the ignition switch back a touch. Be carefull what you spray into the ignition switch, you can buy electrical contact cleaner which will clean the contacts, but I found it also needed some lubrication, so make sure you disconnect your battery before spraying any lubricant liquids into it.

 

[Craig_WV]

You are correct, the output of the solenoid that is marked as ground on the diagram is the hot lead to the starter, and then goes to ground. The other two terminals are wired just as the diagram shows, but on the terminal opposite the red and yellow is a grey wire that disappears into the harness?

Went to the marina saturday to make tests, it was hot and crowed, the boat was bouncing and the wife was not too happy...I did test the solenoid and it tested bad. Told the marina guy what I found and went home. Next morning he called and said boat was running, swapped out the solenoid with a larger capacity one and it was running. But the starter still spins some at high RPM...

I did look at the key switch briefly, but it looks crumbly. The boat is a '96..I'm just going to replace the switch 'cause it's cruddy. The marina guy will give me a discount if I just go away. It's sealed and no way to test it without cutting it out or tearing it up...so...
But the 'ping' that Mick mentioned sounds very familiar. So I'll cut the wiring open and test it out so I will know, then replace it.
But still not confident, you guys are the best..Thank You .
Craig

 

[Jiggz]

Well, it looks like the photo was removed. Anyways, I'm not sure what the gray wire opposite of the red/yel wire is for. On the diagram, that is supposed to be only a black wire connected to ground. There may be another black wire connected coming from the trigger. Gray wire is usually use for the tachometer which is taken from the voltage rectifier/regulator which is hot only when the engine is running but not when stopped.

 

[Craig_WV]

I have the image, and am looking at it, and just confused my self...sorry. Shouldn't the red from battery/fuse/rectifier be on the opposite side of the terminal going to the starter? And the red/yellow from the switch is a small wire on side of the solenoid...different from the image I think?

 

[Craig_WV]

What would happen if the red battery/fuse/rectifier wire and the red/yellow from the switch were reversed?

 

[Jiggz]

Technically, you shouldn't be able to reverse the two since they have two different sizes of terminals. The red/yel wire terminal is really small as it controls only the coil for the larger switch (which is the two large red cables, one from the battery and the other going to the starter). Now if you are referring to the small red wire that goes to the fuse and eventually to the B terminal of the ignition switch and is reversed or switched connected with the red/yel wire, that would mean you shouldn't get any power to the ignition switch thus unable to start the motor because you cannot energize the solenoid.

The orientation of the drawing may not be similar to the real solenoid. So you should reference the terminals instead through their sizes. The red/yel goes to one of the small terminals and opposite (or corresponding terminal) will be the small black wire that connects to ground. The large red/small red and another small red from the rectifier/reg goes to one of the large terminal and opposite will be another large red cable that connects to the starter.