rooster-tail, prop pitch & engine height

Fishizzle

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Apr 19, 2016
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Some quick stats before I pose my question:

1998 Ranger Reata with 175 EFI
Prop: 25p Tempest
Top Speed: 52mph GPS fully trimmed
Top RPM: 5250 Tachometer fully trimmed


Here's my question. I can fully trim my motor at top speed and throw a 20' rooster tail with no loss of speed or cavitation of the prop. Thats a lot of wasted energy going up in the air. I'm told that you should be able to trim your motor until the prop cavitates, then lower it until it grabs for top performance.

When I trim up.. my RPM and speed both continue to climb until my trim is maxed out.

Is my motor too low perhaps? Looking for input.

Thanks.
 

SkiDad

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I would say you are too high and slipping. Your slip is about twice what it should be. You can take a buddy with you and look at the anti ventilation plate. It should be level to the water getting splashed.
 
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b.gagnon

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I hope you have a water pressure gauge!!!
You may be using a prop that has no bow lift... I had a balistic prop that did the same thing. The tempest is a good prop but if it was a used prop anything could have been done to it... I'm shocked you can turn a 25p prop. How is the hole shot?
 
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Texasmark

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Nope. Your transom is too steep.....aka the 20 degrees that the trim will lift your skeg is not enough to get your prop out of the water. I had An 18' Ranger Fisherman with a 115 tower on it and could lift it on out till the speed started falling off and rpms started to rise......pretty good rooster but I didn't pay any attention to that.....the instruments told me what was going on. I could hear the engine rpms and the prop blades beating the water...engine was running 6k and singing, prop was beating at a lower speed (2:1 gearbox). Had some rooster, maybe 4'.

My next boat was smaller, 17' alum. and had a steeper transom. I had a 90 Merc on that (see my avatar) and essentially no rooster. Pic was taken at just under 50mph gps at 5800 rpm. I couldn't trim up high enough to "blow out". Thought about building an adapter to pick up a few more degrees but never did.
 

Fishizzle

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Regrettably I have no water pressure gauge. I do monitor the "tell tale" or "pee" if you will to make sure its pumping good water which it appears to be.

-The prop came with the boat. Possibly been re-worked, no way for me to know. There are a few very minor dings in it.

-The prop-slip is definitely a concern of mine, around 20% by my calculations.

-The hole shot is quick, not slow by any means.

Lastly, I believe this rig to be capable of almost 60mph...but perhaps not. If the motor height is correct the next step is to go down in pitch to a 23 tempest.

Thanks everyone for your input so far!
 

Texasmark

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I just ran your numbers on go-fast.com BAM prop slip calculator. Assuming a 1.76 gearbox, max is 71 and your actual 52 (If it's accurate) says 27% slip. Going the the 1.84 gearbox max is 68 and slip shows to be 24.
I don't like your numbers either. I just pulled a picture of that boat and it's a good deadrise at the transom, pad hull.....typical Ranger. Heck I ran right there with my 115 tower on the same hull (49). One problem you may be having is your prop. How about a couple of pictures of it......blade tips and side shot....looking for how much RAKE it has. With that hull you need a high rake prop to lift the bow to get the boat squarely on the pad and working the way it was intended. Your slip should be back around 15 or less right at the blow out position on trim.

I'm going to bet you aren't on the pad at all. Per the picture I pulled up seating is a bit far forward and that DOES make a difference. Adding weight to the stern can help with the pad performance. Remember pad bass boats are stern heavy, big time. Sloppy hole shots were the norm, even with ported props, course part of that is the high pitch prop necessary for the pad runout. Your good hole shot comment is the wrong answer for the top end you are looking for unless your current prop is ported.

How old is the boat. What's it's history. How much crap do you have stored in it? How many in the boat and seated where when you ran your numbers? Forrest goes a long way in sealing his boats against water absorption but if yours has been sitting out in the weather for years, uncovered, with the bow down, you may have water ingestion and it and the bow area weigh much more than when new.
 

b.gagnon

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Texasmark may have a point about the transom angle...You may be getting to the lift section of the trim, and the pressure relief wont let it go up more while underway due to the force. If you can't cause a "Blow Out" condition this could very well be your problem. You could also have an internal hydraulic leak or low fluid. Trim the motor up in the driveway overnight without the lock, and check it the next day to see if it lowered any on it's own. I would also try to trim the motor out more by adding something between the rams and see if you can get a little more trim out of it (nothing too extreme). If that doesn't work I would try a 21-23p prop. Mercury EFI outboards love rpm's and you are a bit low! Can you take a picture of the setup with the motor in the down position (not neg trim)? Make sure the bottom of the boat is shown in relation to the motor.
 

Fishizzle

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I'll get pictures of this set-up asap. To answer a few questions...the boat is in general in great condition for its age, only 180hrs on the engine. When doing speed tests, I have two people no gear and about 15 gallons of gas.

I talked with Ranger tech support and they recommended on this set-up a 23p prop to run mid 50's. Lower unit is the 1.87 with 5600 max rpms.
 

b.gagnon

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The motor is a bit high (if you don't have a jack plate), and your prop is junk! You need to get a new one to get true #'s...
You want to prop the boat so that it hits max rpm under normal use conditions....If you are a fisherman all the gear adds up and you will loose more RPM. Also the vent holes on the prop are open which I believe causes more slip for a better hole shot. I think someone set this engine up so that it could turn that prop, instead of using the right one!


Just noticed that the vent holes may be plugged....
 
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SkiDad

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i agree that prop is causing you slip issues - you need to at least get it repaired and the pitch trued up and maybe some tip cupping added - if you have that done have them drop the pitch for you too. Or maybe look into the michigan apollo prop or powertech raf3 prop, i think 25 p is too high
 

Texasmark

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Height looks good. Since you have setback, I think the big guns on here said something like 1" per foot. That would put your AV plate right above the top of the boat's discharge water....perfect for what you want to do.

The cup is marginal as I see it. You have very little rake. I'll see if I can get one of my pictures of my 13 ? x 24P XL Ballistic and show you a prop with some rake and cup....course cup has to be matched to the prop....can have too much. P1010043.JPG


This is the Ballistic on my '02 90 triple looper. Notice that the tip of the prop is aft of the end of the prop's root. Check out yours, a lot less and look at how my blades roll and lay back and yours is pretty much straight up. Does make a difference. Oh and on the smoke, I just started the engine having not been run for a couple of months and it was a cool day. I use the Penn semi syn and it hardly smokes at all when out and running. Not knowing anything else, a good prop with bow lift with your sized engine should be able to overcome your helm forward and put you on your pad like should be the case allowing you to get what you want in terms of MPH.

However, bow lift will put your engine deeper in the water, so it will aggrivate your transom angle problem somewhat. I like the idea of simulating a shallower pitched transom to get the prop up higher....just think it out before you do it and don't break something! However, if you get on your pad like you should be, that will raise you out of the water and just may solve your problem. I just can't believe Forrest would screw up one of his pad hulls like that.....too much transom tilt.....goes against everything he has worked for over the half century he has been building high performance boats.

Edit: Your quick hole shot is due to the ports in the prop. Ports let exhaust gasses flow across the blades during the hole shot. This decreases the water density across the blades, reducing the load on the engine, allowing for it to rev faster and since rpms are an element of HP, [ Hp = (torque x rpms)/5252] you develop your hp faster and get your good hole shot. Once out of the hole and the ports seal off due to bypassing water pressure and low resistance for exhaust out the end of the barrel of the prop, the holes seal off, the water density across the blades returns, the prop bites and if your boat is like my Ranger was, you get a drop in rpms and a lurch forward......and now you can realize the benefit of your high pitched prop.

Mark
 
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Fishizzle

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Very informative replies everyone thank you!

If I'm reading everything right, I need to first repair the prop. Smooth out the dings and fine-tune the edges? Re-run to see how it performs and if still low then drop down in pitch??

Adding rake and cupping would drop RPM's correct?

Which props should I consider that would have more rake and cupping?
 

Fishizzle

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I was always under the impression the Tempest was one of the best for bow lift. I do have a mercury shop down the road who will let me test props.
 

Texasmark

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Doesn't look like it to me. I learned the vernacular on this site after joining. Lots of learned folks that had careers in exciting aspects of boating and shared their expertise. A few of them left.....Faztbullet for one. On the performance of a bow lifting prop, I learned that first hand. I experienced it before I knew what I was experiencing.....the Ranger and riding on a pad back in 1989 when it was equipped with a Quicksilver/Mercury Laser SS prop (the first edition, not to be confused with the Laser II).

The prop shop is the right answer. Ensure that whatever you test is ported, like your Tempest, as you are used to that and like the hole shot. The black things in your prop holes are plugs that come in various sizes and the size determines the amount of spin up you get in the hole. Too large and your rpms run up too high and you take forever to get out. Too little and your high pitched prop is a dog in the hole. You apparently are running the right size as you are happy with yours and your test prop(s) should be ported. The Laser II may be a good place to start if they are still available. I am not familiar with any current props other than the Ballistics I ran for the last 10 years which had all the goodies but porting and I ported mine just to have something to do one day, but really didn't need it as the boat in my picture is alum with the right hull and hole shot was a no brainer .

Looking at a '94 Mariner sales brochure in the 135 to 200 hp sized engines, they advertise power movement of the engine: -4 to +20 is the range of the power trim and that is measured with the engine vertical but does not specify the tilt angle of the transom bracket for the measurement. From +20 to +75 degrees it is tilt only.

Also in that sales brochure I noticed Laser II Props in several of their pictures so that tells me that they were as hot as their predecessor and Merc/Mariner is not ashamed to flaunt them. They are SS, ported, cupped, and high rake....all the goodies. Quicksilver Mirage is posted in that catalog too but I don't see any ports and you have already proven to yourself that your replacement needs to be ported. I'd start with the Laser II from your prop shop in addition to what they may recommend. ensure that your take your pictures of your setup with you and your numbers......on your numbers, one thing that I didn't see.....how did you measure your mph? Meter or GPS? If meter, that could be a source of disinformation which could drop your slip number if in the right direction, but will have nothing to do with your being able to trim up till you blow out.

When you get to the top of the trim piston, the tilt mechanism takes over and can continue to lift the engine but only if it has more power than is applied to the lower unit via the prop turning. If the prop is turning too fast.....slightly above idle rpms, it causes too much pressure on the piston (like in a trim situation) and the tilt pressure relief kicks in and bleeds the pressure back to the upper end of the trim position....+20 degrees from vertical plus some transom angle.

As mentioned herein buy Mr. bgagnon, your trim may be bleeding down due to faulty system pressure. One way to find out is to drive your engine up to about 20 degrees above vertical and let it sit for a week. If it's still there or reasonably close, I'd forget the trim malfunction idea.

I disagree with Ski Dad on his suggestions and I have talked through my differences in my replies supplying reasoning for my opinions.
 

b.gagnon

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You may find that a $100 prop works best....The problem is that you may have to spend $1500 to find it !!! Mercury mirage props are great and can be found for short $$$ used... Every boat is different. A good example is Texasmark is using a Balistic and it works for him.....I tried one and it could not lift the bow of my boat at all (Heavy Boat). This is yet another prop on the shelf I can't use, along with a mint Tempest 24p!!! The best way to find the right prop is to use the shop down the road.. You will pay more when you find the right one but will save $$ buying props you cant use.
 

SkiDad

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i don't have a go fast boat since we ski, but i seems your engine is a little too high, but not an expert like the other guys here.

Seems that your prop has lost some of the tip cupping. That tip cupping is what keeps the bow up and on the pad and the strikes the prop has had appeared to have softened the cup. If this prop were back to original specs I think it might be too big to swing b/c it would be biting more. I would consider a 22 or 23p Tempest if you like that prop. Merc props are expensive that is why i mentioned michigan or powertech. I have tried 5 props on my boat and it runs the best overall with michigan props, but my objective is different.

I also like the bow lift and top speed I got with a turning point hustler prop - it was impressive for an aluminum prop.

In the end the advice above to test props from a local prop shop will be a huge help and you will supporting your local shops.
 

Texasmark

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SkiDad;n10164972 comments and my answers:

i don't have a go fast boat since we ski, but i seems your engine is a little too high, but not an expert like the other guys here.

Not with his setback and if it were he would be blowing out which he isn't and can't even trim up far enough to blow out.
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Seems that your prop has lost some of the tip cupping.

Tip cupping is grab, Most noticable in hard, high speed turns, at high trim angles. Or if wave hopping at high speed it helps the prop to bite when it hits clear water between the troughs.
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That tip cupping is what keeps the bow up and on the pad and the strikes the prop has had appeared to have softened the cup.

Rake is what brings the bow up. If you want to get on the pad you have to get the bow up. The pad is there for high performance running, in the 50+ mph range. Purpose is to reduce the wetted area of the boat and hence the drag caused by the water's friction.

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If this prop were back to original specs I think it might be too big to swing b/c it would be biting more. I would consider a 22 or 23p Tempest if you like that prop. Merc props are expensive that is why i mentioned michigan or powertech. I have tried 5 props on my boat and it runs the best overall with michigan props, but my objective is different.

I don't see anything wrong with his prop as it is if comparing to a new one other than lost a little luster that a polishing might return. You are going to be hard pressed to "wear" cupping off a SS prop without showing a lot of wear elsewhere too.
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I also like the bow lift and top speed I got with a turning point hustler prop - it was impressive for an aluminum prop.

The Turning Point Hustler is a high rake prop, ported and cupped. Only difference in it and a high performance SS prop is the material is aluminum.....I have one and I think the color of the paint is ucky!

Edit: Forgot something. It's lacking the thing blades which have more resistance in slicing through the water and can make a difference at the high end due to the aluminum again, but it is a premium aluminum, not OEM run of the mill. Their sales brochures detail all this and it's accurate.
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In the end the advice above to test props from a local prop shop will be a huge help and you will supporting your local shops.
 
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