Running engine no water.

ritzlimo

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Dec 11, 2004
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I know you are never to run your engine without water. But let's say without getting into to much detail, somone was stupid enought to do it. How long could one run the engine before some sort of damage would occur, say to the impeller?
 

Don S

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Re: Running engine no water.

15 seconds or less, depending on rpm and type of impeller.
 

DHPMARINE

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Re: Running engine no water.

Yep! Several years ago I sold 4 waterpump kits to the same boat/owner.he finally amitted he would 'just click the starter to be sure the battery was ok' before hooking up to the truck.<br /><br />DHP
 

Bondo

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Re: Running engine no water.

I Agree......<br />Everything Else would go a minute or better........<br />The Impeller is Toast, before the motor starts.......
 

ziggy

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Jun 30, 2004
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Re: Running engine no water.

ritz, wish i'd have saved the website to give you but i didn't. what don says is right. saw a pic of a impeller on line. they started with a fresh impeller. ran it dry. took it apart at different intervals. 15 sec. 30 sec. so on and so fouth. up to about 1 min. + a little bit. man it was starting to disintegrate in the first 15 sec. worse ea interval by a noticable diffence. at the end it was just a hub with no impeller blades. unfortunetly i can personaly confirm this. if ya aint making mistakes, your not doing anything. but it does seem better to get educated and learn from others mistakes.
 

cc lancer

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Aug 23, 2004
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Re: Running engine no water.

I was told by a Jabsco factory rep. years ago that damage is starting to occuring after 5 seconds.<br /><br />And I see guys with outboards fire their engines up run for a minute or two then put the boat in the water.
 

rwidman

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Re: Running engine no water.

How long could one run the engine before some sort of damage would occur, say to the impeller?
Damage will be to the impeller and to the housing if you continue.
 

rwidman

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Re: Running engine no water.

Originally posted by DHPMARINE:<br /> Yep! Several years ago I sold 4 waterpump kits to the same boat/owner.he finally amitted he would 'just click the starter to be sure the battery was ok' before hooking up to the truck.<br /><br />DHP
Trimming the drive up or down should do the same thing.
 

ritzlimo

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Re: Running engine no water.

Is this just on an outbord or would the same thing go for a I/O? A 2001 Bayliner with a V-8 and a mercruiser outdrive? I ran the outbord for about 30 seconds to get the water out for the winter. I a ran the I/O for about a minute till I fogged out the carb. I guess I will live and learn. Can I expect any other damage? Are the impellers expensive or hard to replace?
 

Don S

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Re: Running engine no water.

It's for an IO also. Running an engine dry will not drain the water from the engine or anything else, it doesn't pump air. So you still have water in your engine, and a burned up impeller to boot.<br />Can I assume you have no idea how to winterize your engine?????<br /><br />
A 2001 Bayliner with a V-8 and a mercruiser outdrive?
What size V8 and what type Mercruiser outdrive. Just like cars, there are different combinations. And just like Chevy, there are different kinds and sizes of Bayliners.
 

ritzlimo

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Re: Running engine no water.

It's a Bayliner 21' 2000 Classic. I belive it may be a 5.0. The registration says 220 hp. It is an Alpha One outdrive. I took out all five of the drain plugs. Put the stabilizer in the gas and fogged the carb. Problem is. I guess I should have fogged the carb before I pulled out the drain plugs. How hard is it to replace the impeller? How do you get out any water that may still be in the outdrive? The most it ran was about a minute. But I started it twice.<br /><br />Did the same on my 1989 35 horse Mercury OB. Fogged it after I did everything else required. Probably ran for about 30 seconds. <br /><br />I had been so busy I put it off to the last minute. The next three days were going to be the first time we were going to have below freezing for more then 8 hours. 3 days in a row according to the weather channel and no Marinas could get them in. I tried to get as much info off the web as possible, but I guess I missed something.<br /><br />I guess next time I won't wait till the last minute. Could I have caused anymore damage? I need some good news. It's long time to have to think about it till spring.<br /><br />Thanks in advance for the help!
 

Don S

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Re: Running engine no water.

I guess next time I won't wait till the last minute. Could I have caused anymore damage? I need some good news. It's long time to have to think about it till spring.
Here again, with no information it's hard to say if you have damage or not. But if it got into the teens or low 20's for 3 days, yea, you have some problems.<br />What you need to do while you are waiting on a thaw is to get the serial numbers off your engine and drive, and order some Mercruiser service manuals for your engine and drive.<br /> Click here to order <br /><br />Here is a thing I put together a while back that will give you some idea what to expect.<br /><br />Winterizing your boats engine and drive is a lot of work. Not doing it or doing it improperly WILL be very expensive to fix , and that is also a lot of work. <br />Plan on giving yourself the full day to winterize your boat, and don't wait till the last minute to do the job. As difficult as winterizing can be, doing it when it's 35º outside, snowing or raining, windy and in the dark is not something you want to do.<br />Read and think about everything you are about to do before you start, and plan for it. Tools, parts, helpers, (oh yea) even if just to hand you stuff and talk with you. Make a checklist if it'll help.<br />All set? Here we go.<br /><br />Before you start the engine, add fuel stabilizer to the fuel tank. If possible, put in the stabilizer on the last trip of the season and top off the fuel tank before you get to your driveway or where the boat will be stored. This will allow the stabilizer to mix completely in the tank.<br /><br />You do have your Service manuals for the engine and drive handy, don't you? <br />If not you are looking for trouble.<br /><br />A few things you will need to have:<br />Get all your parts together before you start. Filters, gaskets, o-rings, seals, etc. <br />Note: (Gaskets, o-rings, and seals are not reusable, they may look like it, but they are a one time use item.)<br />Look at your manual before hand and know what types of grease, oils, lubes, gear lube, sealers, fogging oil, etc. you are going to need and have them on hand and ready.<br />Have the tools needed to do the job. Including filter wrenches, alignment bars etc.<br />Plenty of rags and oil absorbent pads<br /><br />1. Run the engine on muffs. This will do several things. Warm and mix the oil for changing, and flush the cooling system if you have been running in salt or brackish water. <br />2. After running, change oil, filter.<br />3. Change fuel filter/s, be sure to check the contents of the filter. If there is around a 1/4 of the contents water, you should drain the water out of the tank. (That won't be covered here) <br />4. Check the antifreeze level and be sure it's in the proper temperature range. -35 degrees is a normal 50/50 mix of antifreeze and water.<br />5a. Remove the Outdrive. (Mercruiser, OMC, and Volvo DP-S and SX)<br />Check ALL the bellows. if any of them look weather cracked or seem excessively stiff or weak, replace them. A leaky u-joint bellows ruins gimbal bearings and u-joints and drives if allowed to keep leaking.<br />On Mercruiser, OMC, and Volvo DP-S and SX style drives check the engine alignment (If you are going to do your own work, you MUST have an alignment bar) <br />5b. For those with the Volvo 270 through 290 style drives. Remove the upper gear box and check the bellows and u-joints. The bellows are not as strong as the Merc and OMC bellows so replace them every couple of years just to be safe. If they go bad, you must pull the engine to change the intermediate bearings in the bell housing. Be sure you don't loose the shims between the upper gear box and the intermediate housing.<br />6. Check the gimbal bearing. Does it turn smooth? if not replace it. Check the u-joints do they feel smooth also? Any catches indicates they are worn and should be replaced. If ok, grease the zirks or pull the plugs (if equipped) and lube them. <br />7. Was there any gear lube in the bellows when you removed the drive? If so, the input shaft seal is leaking and should be fixed before reinstalling the drive.<br />8. Drain the gear lube from the drive and refill per manufacturers specs. ALWAYS use new gaskets and o-rings on drain, fill, and vent plugs and dipstick fittings and plugs, along with new gaskets and seals for mounting the drive back on the boat. Don't forget to remove the gear lube monitor (if equipped) and clean it. The gear lube will form sludge in the bottom after a couple of years. Clean it yearly and you won't have a problem.<br /><br />NOTE: For those with Mercruiser Alpha drives. If you are planning on changing the impeller, now is the time to do it. Since you must remove the lower unit to get to the pump, no reason to put in new gear lube till it's done. <br /><br />9. Remove the prop and check for any fishing line around the prop shaft (very common problem, even for those that don't fish), clean and grease the shaft with a good quality marine grease prior to reinstalling the prop. Any kind of grease is better than none at all. And if you remove your prop yearly, you should never have a problem with the type grease you use. <br />(DO NOT use Neversieze) it may be great for cars, trucks, tractors etc. but in the boating business we call it "Eversieze".<br />If you notice nicks, dings or bends in the prop blades, now would be an ideal time to send the prop out to a prop shop for repairs.<br /><br />10. Reinstall the drive per the manual. (new gaskets and seals, right???)<br /><br />11. Check the batteries, is the acid level where it should be? Are they fully charged? A low charged battery can freeze and crack and make a very big mess.<br />Terminal ends clean and greased.<br /><br />12. Start the engine, make sure the oil filter doesn't leak, fuel filter doesn't leak and the drive still shifts and run it till it warms up. All ok, GOOD, shut it off. Now it's time to make it safe for cold weather.<br /><br />13. Start by using something like Salt-Away to clean and flush salt and minerals from the system along with a corrosion inhibitor for cooling systems. This will give you the corrosion protection you need while the cooling system and manifolds are dry for the winter.<br />NOTE: Using Salt-Away and a corrosion inhibitor eliminates the need to use anti freeze in the raw water side for corrosion protection. It's safer and easier to use than antifreeze, but it MUST be drained out after use because it Will freeze, just like water.<br />Now run the engine for a while so the Salt-Away is throughout the cooling system, and get ready to fog the engine. Bring the rpm up to around 1500 rpm and start squirting fogging oil into the carb till the rpms drop and you are getting a lot of smoke out the exhaust. Then shut off the engine. If the engine diesels, restart it fog some more, make sure the idle is very low and shut it off again. You don't want water backed up into the cylinders from running backwards.<br /><br />14. Disconnect the water and muffs and allow the water to drain out of the drive. Now get your manual and remove every drain plug on your engine, manifolds, coolers, heat exchangers, water pumps, and anything else that could have water in it. drain the anti-freeze side of a closed cooling system. Look at the book and make sure you have them all removed. Look around, missing one could cost you an engine block. Get a small screwdriver and probe inside every hole you remove a plug from. Make sure there is nothing blocking the water from getting out. Be sure the engine is also as level as possible so as much water as possible is drained out. Some of the coolers for oil and power steering can be drained by removing a hose easier than removing the plugs<br />Put all the plugs back in and hoses back on.<br /><br />15. Spray your favorite corrosion blocker on everything (except fiberglass). This includes battery terminals. Turn the steering so most of the rod is extended, make sure it's clean and spray it with a light oil, turn it back and forth a few times spraying in between so it's well lubed. <br /><br />16. Store the boat with the bow up and the drive down. If the drive is up the exhaust part of the drive behind the prop can fill with water, freeze and crack.......Not Good!<br />It's also a lot easier on the u-joint bellows to have it in the down position.<br /><br />17. Shut off (Better yet, disconnect) the batteries. Tag the cables and wires so you know where to put them back in the spring (trust me on tagging them).<br /><br />18. Don't forget the rest of the boat, this is only for the engine and drive. There is still the domestic water system and the head to deal with
 

ritzlimo

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Dec 11, 2004
Messages
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Re: Running engine no water.

Don S. Thanks for all your help. I got the water out of the block before the freeze, so I am hoping my only problem will be the impellers. It looks like that in itself is going to be a job to replace next spring.
 

Bondo

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Re: Running engine no water.

2 more things to check..........<br />1)Power Steering Cooler..... These Usually Don't drain by themselfs.....You might need to pull a waterline off it....<br />2)Circulating water pump.... On Many, you need to pull the Big Hose off the pump to drain it.......<br /><br />Good Luck...... It Sounds like you've got Problems Enough.........
 

newport dave

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Nov 21, 2004
Messages
458
Re: Running engine no water.

Does anyone have expierience with the Globe blue impellors? They make them for the Aplha and the Bravo style pumps. They claim can run dry for fifteen minutes.<br /><br />I recently installed one in a Bravo drive application. I changed the impellor (and housing), cleared the impellor fragnments from the system, and ran the boat in the water for about two minutes while watching the flow from the exhaust. Nothing. No water was pumping. Shut the engine down. I discovered that the cap for the flushing connector was loose and the pump could not build enough vacuum to draw in water (explains the failure of the original impellor that I replaced). Tightened the cap, restarted the boat and the pump worked fine. A regular impellor would have been destroyed.<br /><br />Is there a down side to these "run dry" impellors? Cost is about the same as the OEM impellors. I will say that the impellor did not come with the key that it requires to work in the Bravo pump, so that was a drag.<br /><br />Dave
 

jlinder

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Re: Running engine no water.

Don S,<br /><br />I would add:<br />1. Pull up the removable seat cushions and put on edge to allow air to get into storage areas.<br /><br />2. A few boxes of baking soda left open to keep it fresh.<br /><br />3. I have thought about putting the trailer up on blocks to remove weight from the tires. I have been told that leaving the trailer in one spot with weight on the tires can make the tires more suseptible to failure.<br /><br />My $.02. Just my thoughts.
 

Paul Moir

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Nov 5, 2002
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6,847
Re: Running engine no water.

ritzlimo - to drain all the water out of your outboard you simply leave it in the 'down' position. They self-drain completely, so there's no need for anti-freeze or anything for it. It's one of the big benefits outboards have over I/Os.<br />Naturally, you're going to have to replace the impeller in the outboard as well, but that's a whole lot better than a blown engine next spring. Good thing you asked! :)
 

n303cb

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Dec 18, 2004
Messages
3
Re: Running engine no water.

Originally posted by newport dave:<br /> Does anyone have expierience with the Globe blue impellors? They make them for the Aplha and the Bravo style pumps. They claim can run dry for fifteen minutes.<br /><br />I recently installed one in a Bravo drive application. I changed the impellor (and housing), cleared the impellor fragnments from the system, and ran the boat in the water for about two minutes while watching the flow from the exhaust. Nothing. No water was pumping. Shut the engine down. I discovered that the cap for the flushing connector was loose and the pump could not build enough vacuum to draw in water (explains the failure of the original impellor that I replaced). Tightened the cap, restarted the boat and the pump worked fine. A regular impellor would have been destroyed.<br /><br />Is there a down side to these "run dry" impellors? Cost is about the same as the OEM impellors. I will say that the impellor did not come with the key that it requires to work in the Bravo pump, so that was a drag.<br /><br />Dave
 

n303cb

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Dec 18, 2004
Messages
3
Re: Running engine no water.

My bravo drive impeller also does not create suction to pump water even though I just put a new impeller kit in. Where is the cap for the flushing connector? Does the entire system have to be hooked up or will the impeller pump water if only the supply line is hooked up?
 

newport dave

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Nov 21, 2004
Messages
458
Re: Running engine no water.

The pump will pump with the outlet hose not connected, but the inlet hose has to be tight with no leaks. The flushing connector on the boat I spoke of was added by the owner and was a simple 1 1/4" hose "T" with a length of hose coming off the tee with a female garden hose connection at the end. There is a cap on the garden hose connection that was loose and creating a vacuum leak.<br /><br />Dave
 
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