Skinny--Socialism vs liberalism vs conservatism

plywoody

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Awhile back, you asked how I saw these various idealogies, and it is a fair question, so I thought I would give it a shot. I've got a little bit of free time this morning.<br />I can best portray them with some specific experiences.<br /><br />I was the manager of an operation in Northern Ontario, employing about 70 people, and a time not too long ago, Ontario had some of the most generous welfare system going.<br />One day, I was sitting in a restaurant and I overheard a conversation that a kid was having with a bunch of his high school buddies. It seems his girlfriend at one point wanted to move away from home, but in Northern Ontario that is kind of expensive. Ontario had a very generous mother's allowance program, however, so the obvious solution to her problem was to get pregnant. A job doesn't even exist in Northern Ontario that would pay a young girl what she could get off mother's allowance, and allow her to afford to move away from home. Ah, but that's not the end of it. This young guy said that he could also get on welfare by dropping out of high school, and attending alternative education, and he could live with his girlfriend, and if she was attending alternative schooling as well, the Province of Ontario would even pay him to babysit his own kid!!! He said it was great--they had a decent home, he had a pickup truck, and a brand new snow machine--what else could anyone want?<br /><br />His buddies were listening intently.<br /><br />Several years later, and finally, a new government was elected in Ontario, and they finally came to the conclusion that the government of Ontario could simply no afford this, and able bodied men, at least, were going to be kicked off welfare. I was the one responsible for doing the hiring, and after the new program took over, I got a ton of applications and resumes. One in particular caught my eye, and I had to bring the guy in for an interview. He was an apparently able bodied man in his mid 30's, and as near as I could tell, he had worked a total of 6 mos in his life, and never more than 2 months at any one job.<br />Who was possibly going to hire this guy? It is a workers comp case waiting to happen. Certainly not I, and of course I had no intention of hiring him ever. I just wanted to hear his story. If that sounds a bit cruel, well then I plead guilty.<br /><br />In some sort of perverse way, you had to feel sorry for him, though. He had been lulled into thinking he could get by without doing anything, and the government pulled the rug out from under him--What is he going to do now, and who is going to hire him? I don't know. It wasn't going to be me.<br /><br />But these are obviously flawed government plans.<br /><br />There is probably some climate reasons for some of Ontario's generousity, and it is hard to have much of a homeless population when it gets to 30 below on a frequent basis.<br /><br />On the other hand, despite what the declaration of independence says, all men are not created equal, and some have more ability than others. Some don't get the proper training to know how to function in the work world, for whatever reason. To simply tell them "fend for yourselves" is, in my view, equally cruel.<br /><br />Some time ago, I was reading of a private program in New York city sponsored by the Nordstrom corporation that was a voluntary no-nosense program teaching people how to be employable, down to the very basics, in how to dress and look presentable, how to show up on time to work every day, etc. They had a fair drop-out rate, but they also had a fair success rate, and the ones that did succeed really turned their lives around. They could not have done it without help.<br /><br />So somewhere in a civilized country there has to be some sort of balance between the two--you simply cannot discard people that for whatever reason cannot function in society, nor do you want to make it so they do not have to function in society to make it.<br />Everyone's circumstances and capabilities are different, and to just tell them "I made it, so you can too" seems harsh and simplistic to me. And while everyone can cite evidence of someone lifting themselves out of their circumstance to better their lives, to assume that if one can do it, all can, is wishful thinking.<br /><br />So, in my view, somehow somewhere in a society in the richest country in the world, there needs to be some balance between helping people out, giving them everything they could possibly need, or just throwing them out to "sink or swim".<br /><br />And I do think we were on track during the Clinton years, as with a greater than 96% employment rate, it is hard to imagine that welfare give-aways was America's number one concern.
 

neumanns

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Re: Skinny--Socialism vs liberalism vs conservatism

Reading this along with a recent National Geograpic article about the reproductive rates in western Europe on a course of decline due to the sub par rate of reproduction to maintain current population forces that will result in some serious socio-economic issue in the future to to the expected lack of workforce. Raises the question, is Ontario also concerned with future population numbers thus funding the motherhood inititive to encourage a future work force? <br /><br />The article stated tha a country needs a fertility rate of 2.1 children per woman to sustain its current population level. I know most will assume it is simple welfare but if you go beyond assumptions is there any possability this is the reason for the program. Goverments do monitor and try and curb such issues.
 

Ralph 123

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Re: Skinny--Socialism vs liberalism vs conservatism

Hey PW, I think somebody stole your ID and posted under your name... Let him keep it though, becuase he sounds like a reasonable guy :D <br /><br />Seiously though, I find it hard to reconcile this post with many of your others. Do you just enjoy playing Devil's advocate 99% of the time just to stir the pot or what? Have you been sandbagging us?
 

aspeck

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Re: Skinny--Socialism vs liberalism vs conservatism

Ralph, I really think that ole' PW is a moderate conservative deep down, but he has bought into the idea that to be a conservative would mean he would have to be mean, heartless, greedy, rich, arrogant, and foolish. And since he certainly doesn't want to be any of those things (well, maybe rich), he must put on an air of liberalism. :D :D <br /><br />Hey PW, just kiddin' a little. I really do enjoy your posts, even the ones I do not agree with! You keep it interesting around here. And thanks for this post. Although I would disagree that we were "on the right track in the Clinton-era" I do agree that we need to be somewhere between a welfare state where we encourage people to sponge off society and where we make it impossible for those that really need help to get on their feet again, or just cannot make it on their own, to survive.<br /><br />I guess I just cannot stomach seeing someone with talents and abilities waste it on the easier route of free-loading off of me and others. I don't mind helping someone in need. I do mind helping the "takers."
 

SoulWinner

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Re: Skinny--Socialism vs liberalism vs conservatism

Doesn't anyone realize that social services are a relative new-comer to socio-economics? Institued less than 90 years ago, how did the world survive before the establishment of ideals such as guaranteed reitrement money, free medicine, free food, free housing......hmmmm. That's a real head scratcher. <br /><br />And how can Clinton be givien the credit for the economic condition of the country during his presidency. He can't. Fact is fact and the economic condition of the US in 1990's is a continuance of the economy that was produced by the policies of the 80's. I posted the reasons before, go back and read them. You don't have to believe the facts, heck, you might belong to the Flat Earth Society for I know.<br /><br />The most helpless human being is way more equiped to survive than, say, a finch. Yet finches seem to do ok out there in the wild with no one feeding or housing them. You want me to believe that a bird with a brain the size of a pea is more capable than a 30 year old able bodied man? That is stupidest thing I have ever heard.
 

ebbtide176

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Re: Skinny--Socialism vs liberalism vs conservatism

i guess ole PW will fall over to read this - but i understand his points here, and they seem to be straight from the heart, not some political handbook.<br /><br />i really am posting to SoulW - one thing to keep in mind is the disabled. PW's daughter for instance, i believe he wrote she was blind, but did conquer a college degree. (btw:kudos to that) :) <br /><br />i imagine 'back in the day'(before welfare) people were more inclined to love & help their neighbors without gov help, and it was a shared resource... and it still is done by charitable orgs today, to a great degree.<br /><br />aspeck's post pretty much summed it up for me too.
 

SeaMasterZ@aol.com

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Re: Skinny--Socialism vs liberalism vs conservatism

I think PW has a pretty damned good head on his shoulders ... he just tends to get tagged as having it up his arse too much<br /><br />I myself dont mind being devils advocate either, its good to see the ol mental juices flowing<br /><br />And clearly, he makes a salient point, if there is a Mission Employable initiative, and some otherwise able bodied slacker shows up with a game boy is his shirt pocket, with long hair, headphones and a birthdate somewhere in the seventies or sixties, with no record of having worked, who is going to go to bat for the dude? (or for that matter, broad)<br /><br />eh ... ill make a post of a related idea I had concerning prisoners ... and the state of Florida, the guy that runs Camp Joe would approve! (yes, there is a tie in)
 

12Footer

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Re: Skinny--Socialism vs liberalism vs conservatism

Plywoody is unique. He trolls a lot, but at least, he tries to keep his posts and debates cival.<br />But I don't have time to read his post right now. I'll reply after I have read and comprehend it.
 

pbailey

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Re: Skinny--Socialism vs liberalism vs conservatism

PW,<br /><br />As pointed out in your examples helping others to help themselves is noble and worthwhile.<br /><br />Handouts help no one.<br /><br />Subsidize that which you what more of.<br /><br />pbailey
 

Skinnywater

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Re: Skinny--Socialism vs liberalism vs conservatism

Yes, I'm sincerely impressed also. Your points are much clearer.<br /><br />Compassion is a good thing. I have it, I've taught my kids to have it. I like seeing it in other people and I generally dislike people who don't have it.<br />However, forced compassion isn't sincere and generally causes resentment. Most of the people you'd hear grumbling about welfare, illegal alien programs and other social programs are compassionate but only harboring that resentment.<br /><br />I'm being specific to the unfortunate people that you mention. The ones that through no fault of thier own have disabilities, physical or mental, or are just plain unfortunate in birth and life.<br /><br />Once upon a time, before FDR, this country had its share of these people. These people actually had more options then they do now. Since they didn't have a government to bail them out. Many saw ways to genuinely overcome thier hardships. I'm a firm believer that hardships and bad luck build characture. <br />Still others have a harder time, more of a disability. Families still not having the government to help, made greater efforts to take care of thier own, thier sick, frail and elderly.<br />These families were made stronger for that experience. In addition there were other circumstances of people with hardships that didn't have the government or family. Historically then, it was the local community that would take care of the unfortunate as well as religious organisations. I also believe this experience brought people, communities and religious organisations much closer and were much better off for those efforts.<br /><br />See, all the things that are truely missed in families, people,communities, and the world today have been replaced with an easy way out! Nothing is worth much if it's easy. Nothing is fun if it's expected. <br />My family gives of it's time to charity, it feels good because we want to. I'd truely give much more if I had a choice in how my charity would be used and how. I guarentee that unfortunate family down the street that fell on bad times, would get much more help from the community if the government wasn't involved. That same family would be much stronger if they were faced with some hardships also.<br /><br />Plywoody, mine is slightly different idealology. Please, please believe sincerety, that mine also shows very strong compassion and caring for people.<br /><br />I've said it before and I'll repeat. Most people are good and caring. This very much includes liberal and conservatives. Niether has the monopoly on this.<br /><br />Thanks Ply for the exchange and connect. ;)
 

lakeman1999

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Re: Skinny--Socialism vs liberalism vs conservatism

"YOU CANNOT HELP SOMEONE WHO WILL NOT HELP THEMSEVES"
 

plywoody

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Re: Skinny--Socialism vs liberalism vs conservatism

Actually, you'd be surprised to learn that I am more conservative than you think.<br /><br />Interestingly, the "conservatives" in politics tend to be less conservative in areas that I am, and more "conservative" (if you can call it that) in areas where I am not.<br /><br />For example, I am completely against the huge subsidies to farmers, the steel tariffs, the softwood lumber tariffs, etc. Competition is a good thing, and tariffs seek to solve a competitive problem by legislating against the foreign competitors, and end up maintaining inefficient industry at the expense of the consumer and taxpayer.<br /><br />As well, I am against the new air polution regs just passed that exempt old industry from meeting new pollution requirements. Clearer air is a must, and it costs what it costs. Acid rain and other pollutants pumped into the atmosphere cause real problems that someone at some point in time will have to pay for, and all we do when we relax regs for economic reasons is to postpone, and increase, the ultimate cost simply for short term economic relief.
 

Carphunter

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Re: Skinny--Socialism vs liberalism vs conservatism

The square root of pie is equal to the sum of the parts of each equasion times three if multiplied by the denominator which would be equal or greater than the sum of the unilateral parts multiplied by fifteen percent of the actual sum of the parts that are unequal.<br /><br />My turn to post something confusing and useless. :D
 

12Footer

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Re: Skinny--Socialism vs liberalism vs conservatism

Ok, Plywoody. I read it. My interpretation is that you are not as liberal as you led us to believe you were, or you have been severely decieved by those around you, as to what conservatism is. You have probably been fed the line "conservatives are against welfare in any form, and would rather see people starving, then to help them. They are a cruel, self-centered lot "..<br />Liberals , in spite of popular belief, do not have the compassion market cornered. To me, a Regan-Republican, there is nothing crueler than to take in a stray kitten, feed it, take it to the vet, give it it's shots and have it de-clawed...then, turn it back loose again. I know, the analogy is a bit of a stretch, because nobody that cared enough to do that to an animal would<br />also issue it a death sentance, by releasing it into the wild with no way to hunt,or protect itself.<br />But it would be the same thing to raise people into a society that gave them all they needed to live, and then, pulled the rug out. Canada did this, and so did we. But was the problem caused by the initial program, or the withdrawl of it, when it finally collapsed under it's own beurocratic wieght?<br />This is what happens when we try to throw money at things. This brings to mind the old saying--- "Feed a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach him to fish,and he feeds himself and maybee his family for a lifetime". These are the reasons I'm a conservative in a brief "to-the-point" format.<br /><br />1, I believe in self-reliance.<br />2, I believe in less government interference in my life.<br />3, I believe in a military that is strong enough to frighten tyrants, and not used as the world's police force.<br />4, I believe that every law should be enforced to the letter, and that all laws, be they federal, state, or <br />local, should be on a ballot before the people, or it is struck-down. But enforce those that exist, without<br />wavering, regardless of race/creed yadayada.<br />5, If I work for it, I should decide how it is to be used...note, i did not specify what "IT" is, nor does it matter. But having said that, I should note that I give 10% of what I make to my church. It should be more, but at a 34% tax rate, I can't afford more. I blame large government programs for this.<br />6, Socialism has a 100% failure rate..It has failed every time it has been tried, and allways will. Examples: <br />Russia, N Korea, Com China, Cuba, France, Canada and finally, every commune ever started by group of hippies in the 60's-70's. They're all gone, save the ones still funded by a wealthy actor (not that I know of any). <br />Therfore, I am a capitalist. Sorry if it wasn't brief enough.<br /><br />If you believe the same as the above 6 ,and concider yourself a liberal, you have been fed "the lie"(that conservatives don't care, or are self-centered)...The same lie I was fed way back when I was in school. It was (and still is) very rampant there. I was sucked-in also. It wasn't until I got into the real world, and had<br /> to werk for a living, that I fully understood the difference. We do care, to a fault. Like the parent who throws his child into the pool, and says, "Sink or swim", only toi rescue the child if he fails to swim, I want ALL people to see the fruits of thier labor. NOW you know what motivates me at my core.<br />Addemendum: I just read your follow up. Welcome aboard, Plywoody. I knew you were an intelligent, thinking person.
 

plywoody

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Re: Skinny--Socialism vs liberalism vs conservatism

You see, you have a mistaken notion of what it means to be a "liberal" Which is why I am not particularly fond of labels, as they are not very instructive.<br /><br />My problems are more with policies of the right, and less with their idealogy.<br /><br />Being a liberal is not the same as being a socialist, just as being a conservative is not the same as being a fascist.
 

12Footer

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Re: Skinny--Socialism vs liberalism vs conservatism

Agreed....And yet, Liberals share many of the same deep down philosophies as do Socialists, Plywoody. Just as Faciasts share some of the same standards as conservatives. These are the extremes, not to be confused with Democrat/republican, Liberal/Conservative.<br /><br />Checks and ballances are the glue that holds our form of government firmly to the rocks. We need each other to 'temper' our decisions, and therby, our direction. Too much of the extremes of iether Socialism or facism will doom us. Freedom to offer both is what sets us appart from the direction Cuba and Lyberia are headed.
 
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