Staring issue...Bad starter?

[PensacolaJason]

I'm having an issue with my 1983 50hp Johnson. It used to be that I would turn the key and it would hesitate to turn the flywheel initially, but holding the key would eventually start it spinning. Now it's barely spinning at all and the battery cables get pretty hot. I've cleaned all of the electrical contact points throughout the motor and also just changed out the solenoid. I put my batter on the charger/tester and it shows the battery is good and fully charged. I believe that the starter has gone bad. Below is a video of me trying to start it. Please let me know what you guys think.

 

[Bosunsmate]

Re: Staring issue...Bad starter?

Take your plugs out and check that the starter can turn the engine over fine with no compression to work against. If it cant then try turning the flywheel by hand to make sure nothing is binding in the motor.
Take off your safety line whule you a doing this or ground the hT plugs.
If the engine is spinning ok then hook up a jumper wire from your battery straight to the starter and also one from neg on battry to a good ground on engine.
If that doesnt make it work then its your starter.
Those ones a easy to pull apart. Sometimes just a clean of their internals fixes them

 

[PensacolaJason]

Re: Staring issue...Bad starter?

Haven't had time to do anymore testing, but a person who works on ATVs told me they had the same problem with their ATV and it turned out to be a bad ground connection. They simply added another ground wire and it resolved the issue. Could this cause my issue on an outboard and if so, is the ground wire usually a wire straight from the battery to the engine block? Sorry for the ignorance on my part. I'm not as good or experienced with the electrical side of things.

 

[likitvi]

Re: Staring issue...Bad starter?

It could be a number of issues, of which a bad ground connection is one. I just opened starter on my E35ECSM that had similar problems, and connecting lead to other positive brush had been shot.

You should obtain a multimeter, and a high DC amperage reading meter. !Caution! There's lethal voltage and amperage in the cables! With the multimeter measure voltage 1st from battery terminal to cable shoe, then from cable shoe to next connector, and so on when the starter is turning. Finally from starter positive to engine ground, from engine ground post to battery negative shoe, and from the negative shoe to negative terminal. You should not see a voltage drop of more than ten mV, except maybe 300-400mV over the cables and around 10V over the stater. If voltage drop sums over 0,5V over the positive or negative connection, renew the connections and main cables if needed.

Lastly measure amperage from starter positive to engine ground when the starter operates. ! Caution! You expect to see something like 10V 40-50A which is easily lethal. If the amperage is excessive, the starter needs to be serviced or replaced. If low either you have too much resistance in the circuit, which the voltage drop measurements should reveal, or the starter needs service.

 

[Vic.S]

Re: Staring issue...Bad starter?

It appears in the video that the pinion gear on the starter motor is staying engaged with the ring gear instead of only engaging when you crank it.

the teeth look pretty chewed up, which may be why it is jamming. Otherwise you need to look at that Bendix

it may not be the only reason you are having trouble, you may well have a bad connection somewhere, but it is certainly not helping.

 

[boobie]

Re: Staring issue...Bad starter?

If all the battery cables and connections are okay you may have a bad starter mtr. I've seen them grunt like that before and it turned out to be bad brushes or the armature in the starter mtr. Have you had your battery load tested ??

 

[HighTrim]

Re: Staring issue...Bad starter?

Heat in the cables means resistance. Voltage drop test individual components, such as both POS and NEG wiring sections from battery to solenoid, solenoid to starter, and connections in between. The ground is critical as mentioned. All connections should be shiny clean and tight. The wires should not crunch when flexed, nor have any cuts, nicks, abrasions. As boobie mentioned, load test the battery.

If when you jump it direct from known good battery with good cables, and it is still hesitant, time to open her up.

 

[PensacolaJason]

Re: Staring issue...Bad starter?

UPDATE: I pulled the plugs tonight and turned the key and it spun right up. I then put the spark plugs back in and hooked up my battery via cables straight to the starter and grounded it on the engine block and when I touched the positive cable to the starter it went right back to barely turning as it does in the video above, so if I understand Bosunsmate's directions above it is my starter that is the issue?

 

[Bosunsmate]

Re: Staring issue...Bad starter?

Sounds like it to me.
Those starters are pretty easy to rip into. Put it on a workbench, somewhere where you wont have parts fall through gaps and go to never never land. You will find that when you open it the springs and things in the base will pop out. Its no biggie so long as you dont lose them.

Have a close inspection of the bottom of the starter when its open. You might see tracks where the insulation has come off and its shorting to ground meaning not much juice gets to where it needs too.
Everyone of them that ive opened up that has being the problem so i just insulate it. Its often where the positive cable bolt goes through the starter housing that its shorting as it is only insulated by a plastic base that stops the bolt head turning. If that nut that the positive wire sits on is turned to tight the plastic where the bolt head is start to crack and eventually it shorts to ground.

 

[likitvi]

Re: Staring issue...Bad starter?

I think that base and the brush assembly of that starter is easy to test once you have it open, the armature a bit more complex to test and service.

I am guessing that the base of that starter will also have 4 coal/carbon brushes, 2 positive and negative. The positive ones are easily recognized by that they have a wire connected to the starter positive post, negative ones to the starter base. You should find next to zero resistance between the positive brushes and the positive post and negative brushes and the starter base. And then infinite resistance between the starter base and positive brushes. Meanwhile check condition of the brush springs also.

Here a service kit with new brushes, and bendix gears are available. But as suggested your bendix gear doesn't seem to be fit for further service, and atleast in here it made no sense to buy the service kit and gear against the price of an aftermarket new starter and the risk of finding also the armature bad. Testing and servicing the armature properly would require rigging up a setup.

 

[boobie]

Re: Staring issue...Bad starter?

To test the armature properly you need a growler which a starter rebuild shop should have.

 

[PensacolaJason]

Re: Staring issue...Bad starter?

I bought a new starter and put it on there and it's still struggling to turn the flywheel. I hooked the battery directly to the starter and the same thing happens. If I remove the spark plugs, it will spin up nice and fast. I'm left thinking that it might be my battery. If I'm having the same issue with the battery connected directly to the starter using jumper cables, then that should mean that it's got to be either one or the other, right?

My question is, would a nearly flat battery spin the starter quick with the plugs pulled out, but struggle when the plugs are in? Does this sound right?

 

[hall832]

Re: Staring issue...Bad starter?

With the plugs out you have less resistance.
Less resistance = less amps

 

[Bosunsmate]

Re: Staring issue...Bad starter?

If its your battery your battery tester is stuffed.
Try using your car battery.
Disconnect it from the car as you dont want the outboard charging system interfering with your cars.

 

[PensacolaJason]

Re: Staring issue...Bad starter?

I wanted to post back an update on this issue. It ended up being the cables leading from the solenoid to the battery. I replaced both the positive and ground wire with new cables and the old and starters fired right up.