Stringer hell is over...

[JasonJ]

Finished glassing in the stringers, I will cut and lay the floor this weekend (hopefully). Hands down, the stringers were the worst part. Clearing all the old skank out wasn't as painfull as spending 2-3 hours a day this week bent over, lower back on fire, permanent respirator marks on my skull, and EVERYTHING STUCK TO EVERYTHING ELSE. Whoever said poly doesn't stick must have been taking slow bong hits, because I have a whole carports worth of crap stuck to other crap.<br />Otherwise, project is proceeding as planned....

 

[Kenbo]

Re: Stringer hell is over...

Way to go Jason! Cant wait to see photos. I can't understand the reluctance of so many on this board to use polyester resin. If used properly it gives great results. Most, if not all, mass produced fiberglass boats are made using poly resin, and it's not hard to work with. I guess it's a personal preference thing. Good luck!

 

[Bgriffin67]

Re: Stringer hell is over...

WOOT Go Jason!<br /><br />Grats on getting the stringers done and your new abstract art collection. Throw some paint on them and go to the flea market.

 

[JasonJ]

Re: Stringer hell is over...

I think the hatred of poly stems from the advent of epoxy, its ease of use, and lack of horrid stench. Boats were, and still are, made of poly, with the exception of some of those made of roplene and other more exotic materials. If I had a more forgiving bank account, I may have used epoxy, but poly works fine as long as it is used properly.

 

[geomarq]

Re: Stringer hell is over...

What's your opinoin on using polyresin on the deck (vs.epoxy)? I had bought 4 gallons of poly for my deck, which I'll be doing soon as well, but I'm debating wether to spend the extra money on the epoxy. It will always be covered when not in use so I think I'll be ok.<br /><br />Also, I'm debating whether to lay cloth down or just apply the poly on the 3/4' plywood deck. <br /><br />Soon as I get my camera working I'll have to post some pics, thanks...

 

[JasonJ]

Re: Stringer hell is over...

You really want to lay at least some mat, it will give more strength, and keep more resin above the wood. You can coat the wood with resin, let it cure, then scuff it with 40 grit and then lay some mat, or you can do it the way I am doing it by using plenty or resin to wet the mat out, enough that will draw into the wood and still leave enough to keep the mat properly wetted out. I think this provides a better bond.

 

[motoman22]

Re: Stringer hell is over...

I'm restoring a 16'6" Venture bass boat and will have to replace the stringers as well. They appear to be fiberglass-covered 2x6 wood that has turned into fiberglass channels filled with rotten wood goop. I'm strongly considering using aluminum 2"x6" rectangle stock instead of wood. I could use pressure treated wood or even strips of 3/4" marine plywood bonded together but I think the aluminum would be the ultimate way to go. The aluminum would be much lighter, much stronger, and very permenant. The coolest part is that I won't have to split my boat in half to lay one-piece 11' boards, I can cut the stock in half, lay the pieces in and weld them back together. The cost of two aluminum pieces is about $100 compared to $20 for wood, much more but also much stronger. Any thoughts?

 

[outonbizniz]

Re: Stringer hell is over...

For strength I'd go with the plywood. Hulls flex even with stringers. I'd think that since the aluminum would have next to 0 give..the hull would be damaged. Might be too stiff/strong.

 

[mellowyellow]

Re: Stringer hell is over...

seems to me the AL wouldn't flex enough when required...<br />may adversely effect the glass hull.<br />thought about composite yet?<br />my cuz used transom saver for 1 bad ceneter<br />stringer, and it's like a rock 3 yrs. later.<br />good quality wood is getting hard to find and<br />expensive... <br />I'm lucky, got plenty of local farmers who cut<br />some nice oak and maple on the back 40.<br />I would personally go wood if I could get some<br />good barn dryed stock and use a quality epoxy.<br />would sure outlive me.<br />have fun,<br />M.Y.

 

[crab bait]

Re: Stringer hell is over...

aluminum would give/bend & stay bent.. <br /><br />this is not my sayin' ..it's on every web site an book on polyester resin an epoxy..<br /><br />here goes for the 20th time..<br /><br />polyester lets wood rot causing water molecules thru like a sive.. has zero rot protection.. <br /><br />also it's truley not a glue .. an truley does not bond well to wood over time..

 

[BillP]

Re: Stringer hell is over...

Interesting...whoever wrote a book saying polyester resin/glass gives zero rot protection needs some medication, or as gently suggested in an earlier post, is hitting the bong too hard. <br /><br />If the glass job is done right it isn't likly going to rot...especially a trailer boat. Most of the stringer/floor rot problems you see in old boats is caused from half-axx glass jobs leaving lots of pinholes for water to enter the wood. The wood won't wick dry fast enough (when glassed) and rot starts. Many didn't (some still don't) even glass the underside of the floor and leave raw wood everywhere.<br /><br />Maybe someone is confusing submerged fiberglass blister issues to be the same as poly/glass over stringers.

 

[JasonJ]

Re: Stringer hell is over...

Billp, don't sweat it, everyone has their opinions, based on what has worked best for them. I still stand by the basic knowledge that the average boat made of poly resin has lasted 30 plus years before needing restoration. I have seen plenty of sixties and seventies boats that are in pristine shape, and it is not because the manufacturer went forward in time and bought epoxy to make it out of.<br /><br />Boats rot for one reason and one reason only; poor care from the owner. I can guarantee that a boat restored with epoxy left out in the elements, water left to stand in the bilge will eventually rot. It is the way the boat is assembled that allows the water to saturate into the wood. It is the exposed parts of wood that wicks the water in. Poly resin does not pass water or wood destroying molds and funguses through it, its not possible. It is the dormant funguses and mold spoors that are dormant in all wood that are activated by the water that wicks into unglassed areas that rots the wood. Pressure treated wood helps eliminate this, but poly AND epoxy do not bond well to it.<br /><br />Also, to say that poly is not a glue is not an accurate statement, as well as to say that it does not bond with wood is also not accurate. If the resin is catylized properly, it saturates into the wood fibers and also stays wetted in the mat, forming an adequate bond. Again, boats have been built with poly for decades, and the ones that are rotten are the ones that are abused.<br /><br />Finally, as far as epoxy goes, it is a great product, easy to work with, and is superior to poly in every way. Now, show me all the epoxy restored boats 10 or 20 years from now, owned by neglectful owners, and show me they didn't rot and then I'll be impressed. Otherwise, it comes down to wallet power....

 

[SCO]

Re: Stringer hell is over...

Im with crab bait on the aluminum. I bet it is not as strong as wood, but tables of bending strenth to yield/failure, and bending to yield are available for all these materials( they will have different spring rates) , so you can make an informed choice. It is hard to beat natures own. Billp , good point, I know my stringers went because of the trapped water in the bilge, thats why I no longer have floatation, but I compensate for that in the places I go, the weather I go in, and the way I drive the boat( I did sea trial in some serious chop). If I ever sell it I will put in floatation first. Everyone says poly is porus(sp?), and that makes sense since they all have an epoxy gel coat sealer. The older wooden kits though spec an outside coat of poly. The new poly layup on old poly is not supposed to stick as well, but I too am skeptical. Let us know if it delaminates. Its all an experiment, let's find the cheapest way that works! The cost differential is so great that you might as well try poly then do it in epoxy if it doesnt work. I suggest inspection/dry out ports. Might find out what crabbait knows the hard way, but sounds like you did a good job.

 

[Kenbo]

Re: Stringer hell is over...

Nicely put Jason. I respectfully disagree with crab bait about polyester resin passing water through. Most rot is a result of a combination of poor craftsmanship, sloppy workmanship and infiltration. I have read many posts regarding transom/stringer/deck repairs due to rot on this board. Often, the cause is staring you in the face. Take those pedestal seat deck mounts, cleats, antenna mounts or other hardware. Did the installer take time to use a proper bedding compound to seal the fastener holes when the hardware was mounted?? If not, there's your point of entry into the deck core! Is the deck screwed into the stringers? Are those fasteners sealed?? What about the limber holes in the stringers to allow water in the bilge to drain to the lowest point(if any)? Is that limber hole cutout area on the stringer glassed over to seal the plywood/oak/maple to prevent water entering your brand new stringers? Maybe that's the reason water got into your stringers and they rotted. How about the new boat owner who has just purchased a complete package from the local marina, did the guy who installed the outboard seal the holes he drilled in the transom to mount the motor or fish finder transducer? Might water get into the transom core that way? I can go on, there are thru hull fittings, bailer plug holes,etc... get the idea? <br /><br />Additionally, many manufacturers do not completely glass the stringers/deck surfaces. If these surfaces are exposed, then water will get in there, its a no brainer! Perhaps the manufacturer scrimped on the layup, cut corners to reduce costs, not all fiberglass boats are built to the same quality standard (not to mention any names). A recent post described a poor soul who decided to rip out all of the balsa core and redo the inner layup of the hull. It doesn't get much more drastic than that! Perhaps there was insufficient glass in the layup which resulted in excessive flex and cracking in that area which allowed infiltration of water and subsequent core rot. I don't know, I'm only guessing based on the info in his post. Maybe the manufacturer didn't adequately saturate the fiberglass with resin and it really was porous. Hopefully when the repair is properly completed it will last for many years.<br /><br />I will agree that polyester resin smells bad. There's no getting around that, but it does have some advantages as well. Some have disagreed with me on this, but my experience is that polyester can be used in a wider range of temperatures than epoxy. It also costs less. The two resins are essentially equal as far as UV exposure goes. You don't want to leave a layup made with either epoxy or poly exposed to sunlight for an extended period without some sort of uv protection (gelcoat/paint).<br /><br />Ocasionally building boats, I have come across instances where "Rework" is required. I have seen plywood removal attempted from a layup only to have to sand the last layer of wood from the fiberglass surface due to the bond provided by polyester resin, the plywood came apart leaving the last layer or two behind. While I'll agree that epoxy has a higher bond strength than polyester, properly applied, the polyester resin is probably adequate for most fiberglass boat repairs. Besides, if you don't seal up all the infiltration paths in your epoxy layup, the wood underneath it is going to rot anyway. I'd rather spend my $$ for gas and bait instead of epoxy. Suit yourself. Just my .02 worth

 

[crab bait]

Re: Stringer hell is over...

read an learn .. for knowledge is the key..

 

[BillP]

Re: Stringer hell is over...

There's nothing wrong with poly res in my book. It is easier and faster to glass with and kick time can be adjusted to keep it from running off or puddling. It doesn't need sanding between coats (if you use laminating resin). The downside of poly is the prep needs to be much more controlled or it won't bond well. On poly's best day it is worse than the lowest grade epoxy for tenacity and strength...no contest. Poly will not gap fill (not even a little) without getting brittle. Epoxy is king here too.<br /><br />I especially like to use epoxy on areas that are difficult to prep or on places that are hard to get your hand in for glassing properly (such as transom corners where they meet under the splashwell and deck). Epoxy is MUCH more forgiving of moisture and vastly superior if you are glassing over any wood that may have been wet. It can easily take months for wet wood to dry completely. <br /><br />In an ideal world we could glue everything together with epoxy and then do the bulk glass work with poly. Everyone knows that you can't do poly over epoxy so once started with epoxy you are committed to a 100% epoxy job. I hope this changes someday so we can do poly over epoxy.<br /><br />For me, the use of poly or epoxy is strictly dictated by the job variables or the budget. However, I can't see how poly is superior in any way conserning a better structure. <br /><br />Right now I am doing epoxy res on 1.5oz mat and 18oz woven roving over pressure treated wood for stringers and transom. I cut the patterns and let them air dry for a year. I also did test samples and beat them to destruction with a hammer. There are NO worries about the success and longivity of these material working together to me. Also, years ago, I contacted Tom Colvin (the navel architect who has designed AND built hundreds of boats since the 50s)about using epoxy over pt and he said "do it" (with drying instructions). Tom has more experience in his baby finger than most folks can dream of. You younger guys don't know Tom but some research will confirm his credentials. <br /><br />Good luck with your projects...no matter what you use!

 

[motoman22]

Re: Stringer hell is over...

I appreciate the thoughts on my aluminum stringer idea.. I'm not going to do it. The stringers will be three pieces of 3/4" marine plywood laminated together in 6" tall strips. I'll be setting up a website with pictures of this project as it evolves, got the power tilt/trim working this weekend! woohoo, had to completely rebuild the electric motor that drives the thing, never seen an electric motor so completely rusted solid and still be fixable.

 

[BillP]

Re: Stringer hell is over...

motorman, <br />A 3 layer x 3/4" ply laminate stringer is the size you would use on a 50'r. One 3/4" is plenty for a 16'outboard. If you check expensive 24'center console boats you will see MAYBE 2 layers of 1/2" or 3/4" ply for major stringers. Pursuit is an example...they use 1/2" ply made into a box approx 12" wide (one port, one stb)for the major structure. I've seen their hull layups in person at the factory so this is not an opinion. Also, due to the thin width of the 1/2" wood they put foam under the wood and let the glass transmit stress to the hull skin.

 

[JasonJ]

Re: Stringer hell is over...

Yeah, single 3/4 ply stringers are more than enough. I have six 3/4 stringers, my rig is 16.5 feet, that is more than enough. Most 16 footers have half as many stringers as mine came with, but mine was built with the six 3/4 inch dimensional lumber, so I am keeping with the same dimensions, just with ply.

 

[jomac]

Re: Stringer hell is over...

Guys the size of the wood you use does not really matter if your layup is close to or better than OEM thickness most major builders don't even use any wood!!! anymore stingers are made completely of Poly resin mat& woven then injected with foam to add stiffness Pay more attention to your layup you'll be fine i've always used 6"or 8" material mat & woven compo about 1/4" thick build to strap the stingers down going out 6" or so out from the stinger makes for an extremely strong layup Good luck!