"synthetic" oil

nailbender2155

Seaman Apprentice
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Feb 15, 2004
Messages
37
I've heard about and seen cans of,, but would someone please tell me just what is synthetic oil? does that just mean that its not made from petroleum? and what is it that makes it better. i know it costs more but thats about all i know.
 

LubeDude

Admiral
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Oct 8, 2003
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Re: "synthetic" oil

This is a copy and Paste, but it should get the job done.<br /><br />What are Synthetic Lubricants?<br /> <br />Engines, transmissions and other mechanical systems contain hundreds of moving parts. Though the metal surfaces of these parts look smooth, they are actually full of microscopic peaks and valleys. When the peak of one surface touches its mating surface, it causes damage. Damage may lead to component surface or wear. Failure prevention and wear reduction are the primary functions of lubrication.<br /><br />REFINED PETROLEUM OILS<br /><br />Conventional oils - the oils most people are familiar with - are refined from crude oil. Refining is a process of physically separating light oil components from heavy ones.<br /><br />Crude oil contains millions of different kinds of molecules. Many are similar in weight but different in structure. The refining process cannot distinguish such molecules, so a wide assortment of molecules is present in the finished lubricant made from crude oil stocks.<br /><br />Some crude oil molecules are not beneficial to the lubrication process. For example, paraffin causes refined lubricants to thicken and flow poorly in cold temperatures. Molecules containing sulfur, nitrogen and other elements invite the formation of sludge and other products of lubricant breakdown, especially in high-temperature applications. Sludge and breakdown products significantly increase wear rates.<br /><br />The assorted molecules of refined lubricants also have different shapes, making lubricant surfaces irregular at the molecular level. As lubricant layers flow across one another during the lubrication process, these irregularities create friction, which consumes power, reduces efficiency and increases heat and wear.<br /><br />"The main advantage of mineral oils is their low cost. The main limitation of mineral oils is that…the lubricant-sized molecules have a variety of structures ranging from the best to the worst (in terms of wear control)." - A. Jackson, Mechanical Engineering Transactions<br /><br />SYNTHETIC LUBRICANTS<br /><br />Synthetic lubricants are chemically engineered from pure chemicals rather than refined from crude oil. That gives them significant advantages over refined oils.<br /><br />Pure - The feedstocks from which synthetic lubricants are made do not contain sulfur, nitrogen or other elements that invite the formation of sludge and other products of lubricant breakdown. Synthetic lubricants can be used in higher temperatures than refined lubricants without breaking down. Their resistance to breakdown also allows them to be used longer than refined lubricants can be used. Lubricated systems stay cleaner and last longer with synthetic lubricants.<br /><br />Synthetic lubricants differ from refined oil in three key ways: synthetics are pure, their molecular structure is uniform, and they may be designed to work in applications in which refined oils cannot.<br /><br />Uniform - The feedstocks from which synthetic lubricants are made feature uniform and smooth molecular structures, which ensures low friction as lubricant layers slide across one another. Reduced friction increases energy through-put for greater fuel efficiency and power and reduces heat and wear for longer equipment life.<br /><br />Molecular uniformity also helps synthetics resist thinning in heat and thickening in cold, which helps them protect better than refined oils over a system's operating temperature range and helps ensure secure sealing.<br /><br />"Field experience has shown that synthetics can give economic benefits when used in place of mineral oils which were working satisfactorily. The benefits fall in five general areas:<br /><br />Improved energy efficiency <br />Wider operating temperature range <br />Increased design ratings <br />Reduced maintenance <br />Better reliability and safer operation"<br />- A. Jackson, Mechanical Engineering Transactions <br /><br />Designable - Many different kinds of feedstock may be used to create synthetic lubricants, allowing a synthetic to be designed for virtually any application. Some feedstocks are ideal for use in extremely cold environments. Others are perfect for use in extreme heat. Some are extremely safe in applications in which refined lubricants pose a fire or explosion hazard. Refined oils simply do not offer the design flexibility synthetics offer.<br /><br />The design flexibility of synthetics also allows them to be tailored very specifically to the needs of everyday applications, such as automotive engines, commercial equipment or much industrial machinery. That specificity helps ensure long life and peak power, performance and fuel economy from the lubricated system and long lubricant life.
 

Terry H

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Sep 25, 2001
Messages
1,862
Re: "synthetic" oil

Lubedude...so what are the pure chemicals you are talking about...in other words, what raw materials are procured to make these pure chemicals from? <br />Hope that's not too complicated to answer. I know where petroleum comes from, so where does synthetic oil originate?..just a Thought
 

LubeDude

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Re: "synthetic" oil

Group four oils: P.A.O's - Poly-alpha-olifins. P.A.O's are a true synthetic. A man made engineered molecule built from the ground up to be a lubricant. They offer a very high viscosity index. Work extremely well at tempeture extremes, both very cold and very hot.<br /><br />Group five oils: Group five oils comprise all synthetic base oils other than P.A.O's . These include esters, di-esters, poly glycols, polyoil esters, silicones etc. In the simplest terms, esters can be defined as the reaction products of acids and alcohols.<br />This allows the "ester engineer" to custom design the structure of the ester molecules to an optimized set of properties determined by the end customer or defined by the application. The performance properties that can be varied in ester design include viscosity, viscosity index, volatility, high temperature coking tendencies, biodegradability, lubricity, hydrolytic stability, additive solubility, and seal compatibility.<br /><br />P.A.O's offer very high viscosity index's and load carrying ability and the esters, which are polar, meaning they have an electrical charge that makes them cling to metal surfaces give tremendous anti-scuffing protection (very important in two-cycle applications) These high quality synthetic base oils are blended with the finest anti-wear, long drain additive chemistry available.<br /><br /> Whew, Dont make me do this again.
 

ob15

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jan 4, 2004
Messages
514
Re: "synthetic" oil

Gee, why do we call him LubeDude? Great explination!
 

KCLOST

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Jun 22, 2002
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Re: "synthetic" oil

Nice!<br /><br />Hey LubeDude,<br />I wouldn't expect this to be a problem, but is there any evidence that mixing synthetics and coventional oils is a bad idea? For example, you have a half a tank of gas with a 50-1 mix of conventional 2-cycle oil and fill it up with a 50-1 or 100-1 blend of Synthetic....
 

walleyehed

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Jun 29, 2003
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6,767
Re: "synthetic" oil

Obviously not LubeDude here, but mixing the 2 isn't a serious issue as it once was due to gel...Best thing to do is run out 75-80% of the fuel/mix onboard and go from there if pre-mixing.<br /><br />EDIT: If you have half a tank of gas and mix 100:1 to fill, your actual mixture is 75:1, and I don't think you want to do it that way with 100:1 because you are leaning the ratio of the 50:1 oil already in the tank...If the 100:1 Amsoil is what you want to use, I would mix the first tank at 50:1, or 75:1.......
 

LubeDude

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Re: "synthetic" oil

Walleyehed is right, Really no problem, I always tell people to run there old oil out as much as they can and then fill with the synthetic of there choice, just becaus if you dont you will not get the full benifit of the synthetic oil for who knows how long.<br /><br />Dont be afraid of the 100:1 oil, the new amsoil outboard oil is a new formulation and is better than the original 100:1 which was outstanding!<br /><br />However if you are the type of Bass fisherman that is at WOT all the time, espesially if you fish on lakes where you run these speeds for 10-20 miles at a time, then I recomend mixing at one bottle to 5 gals instead of six. About 80:1, Other wise you will be fine with the 100:1.<br /><br />Put synthetic in the lower unit also.
 

phatmanmike

Captain
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Oct 24, 2003
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3,869
Re: "synthetic" oil

did i read you right, with this new amsoil, i can run it at 100:1 in my 1988 evinrude 15hp, or does it have to be specific types of outboards, and no, i am not at WOT all the day....mostly on 1/4 to 1/3 throttle all day on no wake riverrs with 5 mph limits
 

LubeDude

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Re: "synthetic" oil

You heard me right, and your little engine will love it. Id do a decarb, put in a new plug and switch over to synthetic 2 cycle oil and change the gear lube to synthetic also. Youll think you have a new motor. However if you have any problems already its not a miracle product.
 

vidar

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Jun 30, 2003
Messages
165
Re: "synthetic" oil

most of the syntetic baseoils are made from crudeoil! but they are heated to gas then cemicaly alterd and condensed hence"syntetic"...."bio"oils moostly made from pressed plants like castor-raps-sunflower-and other.. the best is synt-biograde oils..for us and engine..2-stroke that is...4-stroke normal synt-oil...but thats my findings.... :D ooohhhh...now the amsoil mafia is having a contract on me.... :p dino-oil is base for "magic" synt...... :D
 

Drowned Rat

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Jan 20, 2004
Messages
3,070
Re: "synthetic" oil

LubeDude, what about older motors that take say a 24:1 ratio? Would you still use the 100:1 ratio with this new Amsoil? Can you use this stuff at 50:1 or would it gum up everything?
 

LubeDude

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Re: "synthetic" oil

I think I would cover my bu*T and say no. The older motors needed the extra oil as much for sealing the crank as lubricating, and I dont think the 100:1 would do a good job of this. However if you want to run synthetic in this engine you could use the AIO Amsoil injector oil at say 32:1 and have good results! It can be run as an injector or a premix.
 

nailbender2155

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Feb 15, 2004
Messages
37
Re: "synthetic" oil

I ASK A "SIMPLE" QUESTION AND GET BACK AN ENCYCLOPEDIA. I NOW SEE THAT THERES MORE TO OIL THAN JUST LUBRICATION. I'M GLAD I ASKED. THANKS ALL.
 

Forktail

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Feb 11, 2002
Messages
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Re: "synthetic" oil

It is a common misconception that the oil groups (Class I, II, III, IV, and V) define oil in a "best to worst" way. The different groups of oils are based on the API's interchangeability of base stock categories.<br /> <br />The API developed the oil groups, along with guidlines, that define the flexibility and substitution of base stocks used by engine oil blenders. Basically it's an API base stock mixing standard for oil makers. <br /><br />In fact I believe group V oils are strictly reserved for esters, silicones, and polyglycols...base stocks your engine wouldn't necessarily like. <br /> <br />Three basic things define the oil groups. Saturates, sulfur, and viscosity index. These properties in group III base stocks nearly meet those of PAO (group IV) oils. In fact, so much so that many quality group III oils are classified by the API as "synthetic". <br /><br />Clearly crudes can be refined to within similar viscosity indexes and properties as PAO's, even to a point at which the API considers them synthetic. And IMO, nearly all quality Class III oils (dino oils) will exceed the specifications of your engine.
 

LubeDude

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Re: "synthetic" oil

Forktail:<br /><br />You are absolutly right,<br /><br />The thing that ticks me off is that companies like Castrol with there syntech line charge group IV Prices for a group III oil. Also group IV iols will last longer than group III oils so with a group III you can go say 3000-5000Mi. and a group IV will last 5000-7500 with the same price. Amsoil depending on the product will go as far as 35,000mi. without a change. There are some diesels out there that have 350,000 mi. on the oil but they have by-pass oil filters on them and there is a certain amount of (make-up) oil added due to filter replacement at scheduled intervals. These vehicles also have oil analisis done at least once a year.<br /><br />Chevron ISO/SYN Dello 400 is a hydrocracked group II that will perform nearly as well as the group IIIs at less than half the cost, This is a real good oil for a great price, It will easily go 5000 Mi. and is ok to use in a gas engine.<br /><br />Are we having fun yet, I am. :D ;) <br /><br />Manufacturers that are telling people to go 7500 miles on conventional oil are nuts. Straight hyway miles maybe, but Im not doing it!
 

BillP

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Aug 10, 2002
Messages
3,290
Re: "synthetic" oil

You don't want to compare caster with synthetic for over heating protection. The bean oil wins this one by a large margin.
 

LubeDude

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Oct 8, 2003
Messages
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Re: "synthetic" oil

For any fluid to act as a lubricant, it must first be "polar" enough to wet the moving surfaces. Next, it must have a high resistance to surface boiling and vaporization at the temperatures encountered. Ideally the fluid should have "oiliness", which is difficult to measure but generally requires a rather large molecular structure. Even water can be a good lubricant under the right conditions.<br /><br />Castor oil has other unique properties. It is highly polar and has a great affinity for metal surfaces. It has a flash point of only 445 degrees F, but its fire point is about 840 degrees F! This is very unusual behavior if you consider that polyalkylene glycols flash at about 350-400 degrees F and have a fire point of only about 550 degrees F, or slightly higher. Nearly all of the common synthetics that we use burn in the combustion chamber if you get off too lean. Castor oil does not, because it is busily forming more and more complex polymers as the temperature goes up. Most synthetics boil on the cylinder walls at temperatures slightly above their flash point. The same activity can take place in the wrist pin area, depending on engine design.<br /><br />Castor oil meets these rather simple requirements in an engine, with only one really severe drawback in that it is thermally unstable. This unusual instability is the thing that lets castor oil lubricate at temperatures well beyond those at which most synthetics will work. Castor oil is roughly 87% triglyceride ricinoleic acid, which is unique because there is a double bond in the 9th position and a hydroxyl in the 11th position. As the temperature goes up, it loses one molecule of water and becomes a "drying" oil. Castor oil has excellent storage stability at room temperatures, but it polymerizes rapidly as the temperature goes up. As it polymerizes, it forms ever-heavier "oils" that are rich in esters. These esters do not even begin to decompose until the temperature hits about 650 degrees F. Castor oil forms huge molecular structures at these elevated temperatures - in other words, as the temperature goes up, the castor oil exposed to these temperatures responds by becoming an even better lubricant!<br /><br />Unfortunately, the end byproduct of this process is what we refer to as "varnish." So, you can't have everything.<br /><br />In spite of all this, the synthetics are still excellent lubricants if you know their limitations and work within those limits. Used properly, engine life will be good with either product. Cooked on a lean run, castor oil will win every time. A mix of the two can give the best of both worlds. <br />Like most things in this old life, lubricants are always a compromise of good and bad properties. <br />Synthetics yield a clean engine, while castor oil yields a dirty engine, but at least now you know why! <br /><br />Castor oil would be an excellent oil in a race only engine that was air cooled, and torn down periodically to clean the varnish out, but we are talking outboards hear and it just wouldnt do. Good oil, "yes" suitable for outboards? "no"!<br /><br />Apples to apples! <br /><br />--------------------<br /><br />Lubedude,<br />Someone mentioned castor in another message. If a synthetic/castor blend is used (especially in a water cooled engine), varnish buildup is insignificant...specially if routine decarbonizing is done. <br /><br />The reason to use it is for protection from a waterpump going bad. I've cooked small engines to the point of seizing while running and crackling like bacon in a skillet. After cool there is no damage with castor. With synthetic or pet oil the engines are trashed under these conditions...air cooled or water cooled. Everyone has gauges these days so cooking an engine isn't that common. Neither is running castor. But if anyone wants the ultimate protection from damaging an engine from high heat they have to run castor. Nothing else comes close. <br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />Edited:<br /><br />OK, This time you said "Blend" Id have to say that is better than a full castor!<br /><br />"Cooked on a lean run, castor oil will win every time. A mix of the two can give the best of both worlds." This is a quote from the above post of mine, so are we arguing the same point? Or did you bother to read it all? <br /><br />If you run a full castor oil in an outboard, because of the low heat involved, you are going to have the oiliest mess of unburned oil you ever saw, not to mention an overly dirty engine, fowled plugs and all, JUST IN CASE YOUR ENGINE OVERHEATS?<br /><br />Now I know you do not use castor oil Blend in your outboard yourself and full synthetics are far superior to conventional if overheating occurs without all the bad side effects, and there arent any castor oil blends specifically designed for ourboard use that I know of. The Amsoil 2 cycle oil contains a certain amout of esters anyway which is what castor oil turns into when overheated.
 
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