Types of fiberglass

[fishingfrenzy]

In doing my research for a project, I find many great threads and restorations. It appears that 1.5 oz CSM and 1708 biax are pretty popular for layups. However, I still am not quite sure on what to use when. Do you always start with CSM? Is it important to end with it so you don't end up grinding through your final layer? Does 1708 become stronger when using both 90 degree and 45 degree cloth alternating?

I guess I am wondering if there has been when/if scenario about different cloths and their properties for layups that I have missed in my search? I think it would be a great if someone could spend a bit of time writing up this basic information for people like myself. I have read 100's of threads, and some document their work greatly. However it isn't reasonable for them to also explain the why's to every step.

If someone out there (smarter than I am)! could do this, I'm sure there are many of us that would be grateful. If there is a place where I could read up on each cloth type, their properties, and when to use, please point me in that direction.

This has some great information, but I am still unsure on how to formulate a layup plan.

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=286013

Thank you!

 

[sevanseriesta]

Re: Types of fiberglass

I am no expert but I can tell you if you look up woodonglass he has several diagrams on how to layglass on specific parts like the stringers and the transom. I am also learning so I would be interested to see what is said but you are probably going to get directed to specific links that are post in almost every build. You actually may have seen them already

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: Types of fiberglass

Welcome to iBoats!
The Link you posted has just about ALL the information about the various types of cloth and resin that is required for boat restorations. The first link in my signature below, has drawings and details on how to apply the resin an cloth for Transoms, Decks and Stringers. I'm not sure what else you would need. If you have specific questions, Post them, and I'm sure the iBoats gang will be happy to answer them.

 

[fishingfrenzy]

Re: Types of fiberglass

Welcome to iBoats!
The Link you posted has just about ALL the information about the various types of cloth and resin that is required for boat restorations. The first link in my signature below, has drawings and details on how to apply the resin an cloth for Transoms, Decks and Stringers. I'm not sure what else you would need. If you have specific questions, Post them, and I'm sure the iBoats gang will be happy to answer them.

Woodonglass:

Thank you so much for your reply; that really does help out. Two questions: what is the purpose of only wrapping the first layer of CSM over the stringer, then laying strips of CSM at the end? I would have thought that each layer of 1708 would follow the same as the first layer of CSM, all the way over. Next, what is a hard spot? I have seen them referred to, but am not sure what it means or why it forms.

Finally, I have seen this in a few places so bear with me. If I needed to install a new transom, I would need to remove the outer layer rather then the inside layer, so I would be installing from the outside of the boat. After gluing together the two 3/4 marine grade pieces of plywood together, I would encapsulate them with CSM, as you did. After that is where I have had trouble following. How do you bond the new plywood transom to the inner fiberglass?

Thank you again for your help!

Edit: Is there a place to find out how you made your transom clamps?

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: Types of fiberglass

I never recommend cutting the outer skin of the boat to replace the transom. Not saying it's not done or that you cannot do it that way, just saying I don't recommend it. IF there is NO OTHER WAY then I guess you could, but there are very few instances when this is the case. I would recommend installing the transom from the inside and tabbing it to the sides and bottom of the hull using the methods descriibed in the link. The link also has drawings of how to construct the clamps.

Hard spots are when the wood stringer or bulkhead would come in direct contact with the hull. This could cause the gelcoat on the hull to crack when the hull flexes. Poly requires CSM to bind the resin together and keep it from cracking and adds some structural strength. Laying glass over the top and edges of thin pieces of structure is not an easy task as you will soon discover. Glass like rounded and flat surfaces to adhere to. A 3/4" stringer top is very difficult to get glas to conform to with out the introduction of Air bubbles in the mix and these are a big NO NO in laying glass. They must be removed and redone.

 

[fishingfrenzy]

Re: Types of fiberglass

Thank you much for your response. The hull I'm delving into is a 1965 Boston Whaler. The interior splash well makes it impossible to get at it from the inside. Why do you not like cutting from the outside? I lurk at Classic Mako and they do many from the outside; not trying to second guess you but my curiosity is getting the best of me. Here is what I plan to replicate, though, not sold on the pourable core in my situation

http://www.classicmako.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=40429&whichpage=1

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Types of fiberglass

If you know there are no other problems with the floor or stringers, then doing it from the outside may be the correct method, but it's rare the transom is the only issue, it typically includes all wood in the boat. If the entire inside of the boat needs to be gutted then it's easy to do the transom from the inside and it eliminates the cosmetic repairs needed after doing it from the outside. Some boats have no wood, so there is less of a chance it needs to be gutted, but if the foam is waterlogged (a normal issue with Whalers) it still may be necessary to remove the floor.

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: Types of fiberglass

It's always helpful to post pics of your boat so everyone can see what you're working on. Every boat has it's set of challenges due to construction design. The one you posted the link to is for a Nida Bond composite Poured transom and not for a wood core replacement. Those are a total different kettle of fish than what you were asking about with wood and glass layup. As I said before, you can replace a wooden transom from the outside, just requires additional work and planning.

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Types of fiberglass

Thank you much for your response. The hull I'm delving into is a 1965 Boston Whaler. The interior splash well makes it impossible to get at it from the inside. Why do you not like cutting from the outside? I lurk at Classic Mako and they do many from the outside; not trying to second guess you but my curiosity is getting the best of me. Here is what I plan to replicate, though, not sold on the pourable core in my situation

http://www.classicmako.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=40429&whichpage=1

Aside from some prep mistakes in your link ( which I will not get into in a cross forum debate ) there is no reason why you can not replace a transom such as yours from the outside. Hell I would do it rather then trying to rip apart your classic.

Personally I would not want to debond a BW of that era .. I could not tell you how many hours professionally it would take to uncap it without destroying it.

If you know there are no other problems with the floor or stringers, then doing it from the outside may be the correct method, but it's rare the transom is the only issue, it typically includes all wood in the boat. If the entire inside of the boat needs to be gutted then it's easy to do the transom from the inside and it eliminates the cosmetic repairs needed after doing it from the outside. Some boats have no wood, so there is less of a chance it needs to be gutted, but if the foam is waterlogged (a normal issue with Whalers) it still may be necessary to remove the floor.

Unless Im mistaken .. its a 65' Boston .. probably in the 18' range with blue inside and basically no stringers or bulkies to speak of. Not gonna gut that thing easily ..

OP... help me out with some pics man..

YD.

PS. I guess I could be totally wrong.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Types of fiberglass

Personally I would not want to debond a BW of that era .. I could not tell you how many hours professionally it would take to uncap it without destroying it.



Unless Im mistaken .. its a 65' Boston .. probably in the 18' range with blue inside and basically no stringers or bulkies to speak of. Not gonna gut that thing easily ..

OP... help me out with some pics man..

YD.

PS. I guess I could be totally wrong.

That is why I mentioned a Whaler, the waterlogged foam and cutting the floor out.

The other part was pertaining to his question about why you would do it from the inside.

 

[fishingfrenzy]

Re: Types of fiberglass

Here are some pictures and video.


http://s732.photobucket.com/albums/ww328/jonestrip09/mywhaler/


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INk80WLba0s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIHHYPwM_eg


I am a few months from starting the restoration; I have been reading as many restoration threads as possible to get ideas of exactly what I want. Both my bookmarks and picture folders are overflowing. I still have a long ways to go. I don't want this to be a quick flip, I can spend as much time needed to get this where I want it.

My plans are:

Strip and derig
Clean exterior
Sand off the remaining interior non skid
Replace transom
Patch as needed
Sand exterior paint and prep for paint
Paint
Apply non skid to interior
Add front deck
Rerig boat
Repower
Fish

I want to debond the transom to both do a good job of preparing the surfaces (still might be doing a pour rather than wood transom; undecided) and to get a good view of the foam to satisfy myself that the foam is in good condition. I know that can be done in other ways, but I have a feeling that the stern area is a little wet. I have no desire of keeping this boat as a classic. Nor do I have any concern to maintain originality. Function is king with this restore.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

 

[oops!]

Re: Types of fiberglass

as far as your origonal question about fiberglass. cloths. resin ect....

click the link in my sig... it has the most detailed discussion and theory on glassing in the forums.

you need to understand more about the hows and whys... its not that hard... it just takes a little reading and some practical use of the materials.

ill let ondarvr yd and woodie go into the details of your project, as i have to check the forums right now....
but ill check back in in a bit when i have l little more time.

good luck.

 

[fishingfrenzy]

Re: Types of fiberglass

Thanks oops. I have read about 40 pages of your thread. Only 140 more to go! I'll keep pecking away at it. By the way, your thread was of great inspiration; anything is possible with enough know how and elbow grease.

 

[oops!]

Re: Types of fiberglass

the discussion i was mentioning is within the first few pages of the thread.

it is about all the cloths.. and why they are used. including answers to your question about the chopped strand mat, and why it goes next to the substraight.

without posting another long theroy again...

just remember... resin by it self, is not your friend .... resin is very very brittle..... resin NEEDS the fiberglass to become strong.
any resin rich areas, are prone to failure..... the csm (with its multi directional short strands) is a boundary layer, that inhibits any "pooling" or "resin film" on a surface or sub straight.

next time you do any fiberglass work... use a plastic ice cream pain to do the mixing of the resin.

do your work and let the pail sit to the side after you are done.

after he resin is cured... thake the bucket and lightly squeeze the sides to detach the remanant of the resin from the pail.

pull out the thin film of resin.


you can crumple it in your hand .... like peanut brittle !!!! it just turns to shards of dust.

that is why, chopped strand is ABSOLUTLY NECESSARY between any sub straight or between any layers of a woven or knitted cloth.

hope that helps a bit bud.

cheers
oops

 

[fishingfrenzy]

Re: Types of fiberglass

Thanks oops!