update on 1988 J&E 120/140 p h/bracket swap

93bronco

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couldnt find the main post so brief history-<br />got a 92 120tx that turned out to be a 1988 <br />140 TXCC.<br />it had a shoty rebuild & after pp replacement, <br />rebuilt carbs - it seemed to run good. took it out another time and it immediatley ran bad.<br />changed tstats, retorqued heads- same thing.<br />-<br />pulled heads found lots of corrosion with 4 scored pistons.<br />tore motor down to find a recirc nipple had been pinched off & hose left to suck air.<br />-<br />had gotten a 1993 125 used ph, swapped everything to it.<br />put on<br />new pp<br />used but checked stator & timer<br />used but good coils.<br />new head gaskets & resurfaced heads.<br />-<br />did a cold comp test today with all cylinders<br />rite between 120 & 125<br />-<br />had changed bracket to a 95 225 assembly.<br />put a another fast trac T/T in it and today motor kept binding.<br />had to tap on motor at times to get it to cycle<br />so i assume its bad.
 

93bronco

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Re: update on 1988 J&E 120/140 p h/bracket swap

replaced water pump with a complete assembly.<br />fabricated shift rod height tool.<br />lower unit went in with no problems on friday.<br />-<br />had found a new VRO (early version without wires)<br />still sealed with moisture pack reading good.<br />put that on today, blocking oil side for premix.<br />-<br />installed new tac, t/t & water pressure gauges.<br />water control valve was removed during parts swap & tstat covers updated to 1992 specs.<br />-<br />performed lync & sync today.<br />-<br /> AUGIDAWG- i am interested in getting a list of how you did yours.<br />sounds like something i would like to try.<br />how about some ideas on fabricating a spark checker.<br /> thanx
 

93bronco

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Re: update on 1988 J&E 120/140 p h/bracket swap

augidawg<br />read your idea on 'willxuout' post. thanx
 

93bronco

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Re: update on 1988 J&E 120/140 p h/bracket swap

almost done with spark checker, will post a pick of the monster in a day or 2.<br />-<br />the other question i had was if im running the 140 intake with the jetting of the 120, a #50 at the intermediate instead of #54<br />would it throw it out off tune, being the intake/reeds are different for the 140?<br />if anything i should probably be running a little rich in down sizing from the #54 to #50.
 

93bronco

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Re: update on 1988 J&E 120/140 p h/bracket swap

took it to water today to set timing per J.reeves & to check spark with homemade checker.<br />here are the results<br />-<br />intial check revealed blue spark that could be seen with brite 1pm sun directly on checker- except on #1 -changed out coil, than wire then both.<br />got good blue spark all 4 @ 7/16 gap.<br />-<br />set advance spark to mr reeves way which for me was 18-4= 14 btdc.<br />idle timing was very close to required 8 atdc.<br />-<br />verified that grounding tan warning horn wires would sound- ok<br />-<br />put all plugs back in OL78 gap .30, book called for QL77 - i figured i was going to run a little extra oil at first (40 to 1), also to help burn off fogging oil. <br />-<br />i pumped the primer holding strait up for a good amount of time to ensure no leaks & all dry lines got fuel.<br />bulb was very firm.<br />-<br />turned key on & pushing in counting to 10 & also holding in while cranking.<br />fired rite up.<br />smoked alot, took a few for pisser & gauge.????<br />-<br />idle with control in neutral was rite at 900 rpm<br />in gear 700 to 750 rpm. good for me.<br />checked all plug wires with timing lite- all good.<br />idle timing rite before 8 atdc. good<br />--<br />i let idle 5 to 10 mins.<br /> pushed in key to activate primer- it shut down. good <br />pulled plugs comp test.<br />throttle plates closed all cylinders rite between 120 to 125 psi. (same as cold)<br />wide open all cylinders 130psi<br />another spark check - all good.<br />-------------------------------<br /> now here is a problem <br />started rite back up, water gauge at 900rpm 6 to 8 psi ???<br />yes line for gauge it is at the adapter plate & not the exit.<br />looked at pisser it was getting thinner, than mixed with air & getting hot.<br />touched both tops of heads & block.<br />shut down to let cool.<br />-<br />pulled plugs comp test 130psi all, spark good.<br />figured maybe with tide coming in debri around lower unit.<br />started rite back up, pressure went to 8psi - better stream out of pisser.<br />heads/ block seemed warm.<br />-<br />with still on trailer moved throttle to 2000, psi jumped to 14, 2500 psi alittle closer to 20 psi<br />at 3000 as i felt rpm start to drop- i backed down to idle.<br />i looked at pisser and you could tell that there was air in the water & kinda hot.<br />also had water spitting out of exhaust.<br />-<br />comp test 120 to 125 closed, 130 psi all wot. good spark<br />ok dont think i damaged anything, packed up after 5 hours at landing. luckly there was no one fishing today.<br />================<br />here is my what i think is happening.<br />1- new water pump needs to be checked, along with new exhaust housing seals<br />=<br />2-power head needs to be pulled & replace new base gasket w/ new one. & retorque after intial start up. <br />i figure some of the fogging oil leaked onto gasket along with not retorquing before proceeding with power up.<br />(this time using a cherry picker instead of 2 6ft+ rednecks.)<br />=<br />3- pull heads to make sure no major damage & replace resurfaced heads with the 1993 125esx #339310 heads that came with power head<br />=<br />4-install larger elbow for hose to pisser<br />=<br />5-install new water gauge hose, as i was using 1994 bayliner speedo hose from the force motor.<br />-----<br />now something else that is odd, the new black tstats are the same ones i used on the last power head 1 time (3 to 6 hrs) before it crapped out.<br />is it possible to get 2 new bad stats or is the vernatherm a different temp setting in the black ones?<br />the other is these are the same heads just resurfaced 10ths.<br />but the comp i dont think is that high.<br />-<br />sorry so long but tried to cover everything.<br />-<br />any suggestions or input's??
 

93bronco

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Re: update on 1988 J&E 120/140 p h/bracket swap

well, after reviewing the manual (several times)<br />i overlooked the part of letting it cool after it reached operating temp on intial start up.<br />then retorquing the power head bolts, before running it.<br />-<br />thats what i get for trying to complete it before my surgery on friday.<br />-<br />it would definitly explain the water/air in pisser & upper exhaust.<br />-<br />im going to assume- being i havent gotten any suggestions that im on the rite track.<br /> especially since ive been responding to myself.
 

93bronco

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Re: update on 1988 J&E 120/140 p h/bracket swap

am going to try and change out lower gasket, in the next two days then try again.<br />is there any specific time to wait, like over nite for the 2nd torque job. or just wait til it cools enough to touch?
 

93bronco

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Re: update on 1988 J&E 120/140 p h/bracket swap

one thing i just remembered, is that although the testing of the overheat horn works when grounded, i didnot hear an overheat alarm when slow kicked in to drop rpm.<br />-<br />could the blocking diode be stopping the actual alarm even though the test of both leads work?<br />-<br />also with the 130psi in all cylinders- is that to high for the 87 octane, or should i use higher 89 or 93?
 

Solittle

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Re: update on 1988 J&E 120/140 p h/bracket swap

WOW - WOW - WOW<br /><br />You have pushed my head and it's two brain cells into overload with all the info. Wish others would do half as well. My take on what you are doing:<br /><br />1. Water pressure is fine. Mine is 8-10 lbs in idle and 18-20 at 4500 rpm. Pumps are 6 months old.<br /><br />2. If you have any problem at all I would look at the tstats & pressure valve. You could test them but I would replace all as they are not to expensive. You might try a temperature stick to verify temps. I have also added temp guages to my motors (two 1987 OMC V4s).<br /><br />3. Check head bolt torque after 10 hours or break in. I just tested one of my V4s (18-20lbs) and no additional tightening was needed.<br /><br />4. Use only 87 octane - period.<br /><br />5. I think the water hoses for the tell tale are 1/4" id. Make sure you use marine tie wraps to secure. I had one let go earlier this year at 4500 rpm I blew a motor due to water injestion as a result.<br /><br />From your description I see no need to do all the other stuff you listed. With good compression, spark, timing OK etc, etc you sound OK to me.
 

93bronco

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Re: update on 1988 J&E 120/140 p h/bracket swap

am just trying to cover all bases.<br />thanx for the insite!!<br />-<br />here is the spark tester i built following rowhome's basic design.<br />
fab98736.jpg
 

93bronco

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Re: update on 1988 J&E 120/140 p h/bracket swap

replaced base gasket today, the only place it sealed was to the front.<br />all around exhaust mating surface was wet with oil(top & bottom of gasket)<br />im going to guess the fogging oil that leaked out when powerhead was moved into position the 1st time prevented a good seal.<br />-<br />great care was taken this time, although when i went to pump primer bulb for a start-up it was shot.<br />so i will get to walmart & get a new one, to trouble shoot fuel system - then get an omc & keep the other for a spare.<br />so i will have to try again tommorrow.<br />-<br />i am amazed at how low the torque value is on the base power head bolts.<br />seems to me they should be alittle more than <br />144-168 in.lbs (16-19 Nm).<br />-<br />i did find about 5 head bolts that needed to be retorqued.<br />i guess that is normal.<br />comp was good after last shut down at 130psi in all cylinders.
 

Solittle

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Re: update on 1988 J&E 120/140 p h/bracket swap

2K - You did a real neat job with that spark testor. What did you use to fit the plug wires to? It looks like some kind of a sliding rod but I can't quite make it out. I used a 6" screw on mine that works but I am not satisfied with it.
 

93bronco

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Re: update on 1988 J&E 120/140 p h/bracket swap

those are 5 1/2 inch lag bolts with heads cut off & slots cut in the center.<br />i drilled the holes in 2x4's so i could put rubber hose threw them to insulate the spark from traveling threw the wood, but they also serve as being able to adjust the screws - acting as a nut.<br />-<br />one other thing is the spark plug boot fits snug over the top of the hose, insulating & help keeping them in place.<br />i used fiberglass resin to keep the hose inplace.<br />it fits rite between block & cowl.<br />-<br />im probably going to cut about a 1/2 off the ends, just to have the boots go further on the hose.
 

Hooty

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Re: update on 1988 J&E 120/140 p h/bracket swap

Like SoLittle sez, sounds like you've got a handle on it. He suggested Thermomelt Stiks for checking head/block temps. I finally found 'em but had a hard time. I finally wound up with a non-contact infrared pyrometer from NAPA for 'bout $80. Neat gadget for your tool box and easy to use. Just put the beam on the target and read temp.<br /><br />c/6<br />Hooty
 

93bronco

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Re: update on 1988 J&E 120/140 p h/bracket swap

thanx<br />i borrowed a friends craftsman digital temp gauge, to touch the tstat pockets on next test fire.<br />i also changed both vernatherm, just for gp.
 

93bronco

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Re: update on 1988 J&E 120/140 p h/bracket swap

havent got back to dock to restart yet.<br />so i decided to finally make a piston stop tool out of a spark plug as 'seahorse' recommended in one of my other posts.<br />-<br />i used a ngk plug that came with the 125 powerhead i bought.<br />removing the ceramic was a task!!!! <br /><br />
fa9a71f9.jpg
<br /><br />i JB welded a nut along with the hose in the cavity.<br />to keep it in place after its screwed into position, the wing nut is tightened against the hose to keep tension.<br />-<br />im going to go back & recheck timing pointer alignment with this tomorrow.
 

93bronco

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Re: update on 1988 J&E 120/140 p h/bracket swap

used piston stop to align pointer, worked great <br />-text book- wont know how much the timing is off til i get it to the landing.<br />-<br />trouble shot the primer bulb also today, it turned out to be the female quick connect letting air get by, even my spare did the same.<br />these were new and hardley used.<br />-<br />what other quick connect male/female would be more reliable?<br />maybe the old force model???
 

93bronco

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Re: update on 1988 J&E 120/140 p h/bracket swap

after doing a search on the temps of these loopers,<br />i decided to follow an old post where it was suggested to drill holes in the tstat housings.<br />i had 2 xtra so i drilled 2 #37 holes in each, just to sea what the results are.<br />-<br />still trying to find best deal on t/t motor, thats whats keeping me from testing.
 

93bronco

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Re: update on 1988 J&E 120/140 p h/bracket swap

started on hose with muffler, to check temp with modified tstats.<br />quick start stayed on for a few, than droped about 200rpm. (1000 to 800)<br />at that time i assumed it was operating at normal temp, so let in run about 5 more mins than shut down.<br />-<br />noticed timing dropped to 6dgs from 8dgs at idle so thats ok. (adjustment of pointer)<br />water pressure at 1000 rpm was 5 to 6psi.<br />volts were showing 12 1/2 to 12 3/4.<br />-<br />heads were warm when i shut down.<br />used timing lite to verify spark to all cylinders.<br />will retorque tomorrow.<br />-<br />here is a question i have 2 temp sending units - 1 gauge, is it possible to have a switch to change which sensor is used for viewing with out adding a 2nd gauge?
 
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