Upgrade to four stroke,...how much motor on this old boat?

[SeaNymph Man]

Though I am thinking about a possible new boat purchase by next summer,...if that does not happen for whatever reason,...my alternate plan would be to repower my current boat,which is a 1973 Sea Nymph 14R,...I am wanting to know how much weight this boat can handle on the transom since four stroke
outboards are heavier than two stroke outboards. The boat is rated for 25 HP,but I am afraid that both Mercury and Honda's 25 HP four strokes may be a bit too heavy for this boat. So,having said that,I am thinking along the lines of
either Mercury's 20 HP four stroke outboard or Honda's 20 HP four stroke outboard,probably with electric start. (Now,...should the purchase of a new
boat be possible,I am thinking seriously about Lund's WC-16 with a 25 HP Honda
outboard or Mercury's 25 HP outboard with EFI.) On my Sea Nymph,either motor
would have to be a short shaft motor. Now,...you may be asking the question of
"Why a four stroke outboard?" I can think of four reasons and they are 1;better fuel economy,2;quieter operation, 3;no more mixing gas with the oil
and 4; elimination of the expense of two stroke oil and two stroke exhaust fumes which I have grown tired of. I am making Honda my first choice and
Mercury my second choice when it comes to four stroke motors of 25 HP or less! Now some of you may recommend the 25 HP E-TEC,but I am done with two strokes altogether. I have nothing against the E-TEC at all,but I am
going the four stroke route and for good reason!

 

[geordybass]

Re: Upgrade to four stroke,...how much motor on this old boat?

Though I am thinking about a possible new boat purchase by next summer,...if that does not happen for whatever reason,...my alternate plan would be to repower my current boat,which is a 1973 Sea Nymph 14R,...I am wanting to know how much weight this boat can handle on the transom since four stroke
outboards are heavier than two stroke outboards. The boat is rated for 25 HP,but I am afraid that both Mercury and Honda's 25 HP four strokes may be a bit too heavy for this boat. So,having said that,I am thinking along the lines of
either Mercury's 20 HP four stroke outboard or Honda's 20 HP four stroke outboard,probably with electric start. (Now,...should the purchase of a new
boat be possible,I am thinking seriously about Lund's WC-16 with a 25 HP Honda
outboard or Mercury's 25 HP outboard with EFI.) On my Sea Nymph,either motor
would have to be a short shaft motor. Now,...you may be asking the question of
"Why a four stroke outboard?" I can think of four reasons and they are 1;better fuel economy,2;quieter operation, 3;no more mixing gas with the oil
and 4; elimination of the expense of two stroke oil and two stroke exhaust fumes which I have grown tired of. I am making Honda my first choice and
Mercury my second choice when it comes to motors of 25 HP or less!

yes a 25hp Merc and Honda are very overweight. My old 13' Boston Whaler did ok with it but they dont have much grunt or kick as a 2 stroke or DFI.

Suzuki 25/30 weighs about 40lbs less than the competition...

it weighs about 150lbs and only 30 lbs more that a lighter carb 2 stroke.

 

[moonfish]

Re: Upgrade to four stroke,...how much motor on this old boat?

If you only weigh 75 pounds, the transom can hold a lot of weight. How wide is that boat? I read your message and see a contrast, you want a motor for your current boat that doesn't need to be that big but it'll be too small for a bigger boat if you get anything less than a 25. I bet your new boat would be long shaft also?

I wouldn't buy a new motor that only fit on a boat I planned to part with. You take the big depreciation hit and that doesn't help you get into another boat(literally).

 

[steelespike]

Re: Upgrade to four stroke,...how much motor on this old boat?

4 strokes are fine motors but too many moving parts,More frequent more complicated service intervals.They make oil requiring specific operation to avoid.Etec has a trolling button.Is available with tilt and trim.Short shaft manual start are about 147lbs.You should try to get a test ride with each motor you are considering and the etec.A 25 etec on a alumacraft V16 280lbs.31 mph @ 6,000,3.09 GPH (gallons per hour)21.5 at 4,500 1.28 gph.16.8 mpg.1.4 mph at 750rpm,.07 gph.If there are any other DFI 2 strokes you should try them as well.DFI 2 strokes are not "your fathers 2 stroke)
Usually the 2 stroke will have a slightly higher GPH but will run faster.
Thus as good or better mpg.

 

[SeaNymph Man]

Re: Upgrade to four stroke,...how much motor on this old boat?

If you only weigh 75 pounds, the transom can hold a lot of weight. How wide is that boat? I read your message and see a contrast, you want a motor for your current boat that doesn't need to be that big but it'll be too small for a bigger boat if you get anything less than a 25. I bet your new boat would be long shaft also?

I wouldn't buy a new motor that only fit on a boat I planned to part with. You take the big depreciation hit and that doesn't help you get into another boat(literally).

The boat I have now was made in 1973. I apologize for any confusion,but the motor upgrade on my present boat is "Plan B" should the new Lund I want,..."Plan A",.. does not work out. I can see why you seen a contrast there in my posting. The Lund WC-16 has two transom heights,..15" for a short shaft motor and 20" for a long shaft motor. My Sea Nymph can only take a short shaft motor.

 

[SeaNymph Man]

Re: Upgrade to four stroke,...how much motor on this old boat?

4 strokes are fine motors but too many moving parts,More frequent more complicated service intervals.They make oil requiring specific operation to avoid.Etec has a trolling button.Is available with tilt and trim.Short shaft manual start are about 147lbs.You should try to get a test ride with each motor you are considering and the etec.A 25 etec on a alumacraft V16 280lbs.31 mph @ 6,000,3.09 GPH (gallons per hour)21.5 at 4,500 1.28 gph.16.8 mpg.1.4 mph at 750rpm,.07 gph.If there are any other DFI 2 strokes you should try them as well.DFI 2 strokes are not "your fathers 2 stroke)
Usually the 2 stroke will have a slightly higher GPH but will run faster.
Thus as good or better mpg.

When you say a four stroke "makes oil",what exactly do you mean by that? I have heard of motors burning oil,...but I do not understand this "make oil" scenario! One last thing,...I have decided against the E-TEC due to a few
reasons. 1;I do not buy the idea that you can run a motor five hours without oil,..2;I do not buy into the idea of running a motor full throttle right out of the box without breaking it in properly first and 3;I do not buy into the idea of running it three years without doing any maintenance. I am not going to invest several thousand dollars on a motor and not maintain it,...no way!
So,for those three reasons alone,the E-TEC is not on my list anymore. I
will even throw in a fourth reason why I have decided against the E-TEC,...
there is NO WAY a two stroke can achieve better fuel economy than a four stroke,even if it is a DFI two stroke. I just do not see how that can be even
remotely possible.

 

[jeff_smith_0423]

Re: Upgrade to four stroke,...how much motor on this old boat?

Buy what you want and live with your decision. However - I will rebut some of your concerns.

1. Carbureted two strokes depend on the oil in the fuel being deposited on moving parts and bearing surfaces while being drawn through the crankcase. DFI two strokes inject oil strategically at key points in the motor. Damage occurs when those surfaces run dry and overheat. Modern oils run in modern engines with enhanced tolerances will hold up in the event that you run out of oil. The engine's electronics will limit you to a specific RPM range to prevent damange. Besides. Who runs a VRO boat and doesn't have at LEAST a quart of extra oil onboard?

2. The break in period is largely a moot point on these engines due to new breakthroughs in metalurgy, casting, and machining. Old engines needed a "break in" period so that everything could "wear-in" or "seat properly" . Its just not necessary anymore. Next time you buy a new car, ask what the "break in procedure" is for the engine. You'll probably be told that there is none - possibly an oil change at 3k

3. Maintainance. There's nothing to maintain. The motor automatically fogs and stores itself. There are no valves to adjust. There are no carb jets to clog. There are no floats to puncture. Plug fouling is a very rare occurence with computerized DFI and oil injection. The only thing i could possibly fathom needing to maintain is gear lube - and if you don't spend $10 to check and swap out your gear lube once a year, recommended by the manual or not, you don't need to be running a high dollar outboard.

What's stoping you from breaking it in as you see fit, maintaining it as you see fit, and heaven forbid, actually running the motor with oil in the reservoir? Nothing. Is BRP going to come knock on your door and say "We heard you changed your gear lube two years early. Shame on you. Warranty void!" ?? Not gonna happen.

It's your rig and your decision. I've seen a couple threads where you've brought up these exact same points and there just hasn't been a proper rebuttal for the common reader who sees your post and says "Well, I'll be. BRP has been selling us snake oil for going on ten years!" It's just not true.

 

[jeff_smith_0423]

Re: Upgrade to four stroke,...how much motor on this old boat?

Will somebody please clear this spam?

 

[steelespike]

Re: Upgrade to four stroke,...how much motor on this old boat?

Basic major moving parts in a 2 stroke power head. 5, Basic major moving parts in a 4 stroke power head. At least 28.
4 stroke making oil:: with extended trolling; moisture collects in the oil actually raising the oil level. Usual suggested cure is to operate the motor at higher rpm for a specific time to heat the oil to remove the moisture.
Again fuel use is a wash with each motor excelling at certain speeds.
Do you really think BRP would setup their service intervals and breakin if they would comprimise the integrety of the motor.And it is no service for 300 hours or 3 years not a flat 3 years.I can just about guarantee a 4 stroke won't have the same hole shot as a 2 stroke And if it is setup to match the 2 stroke hole shot it won't match top end. It will also struggle more to push a load.
If the 4 stroke uses less gph(gallons per hour)but takes longer to go the distance it loses its GPH advantage.If there is any GPH advantage it will soon be eaten up by service intervals and service complexity.
Think about it a small sofisticated auto engine is redlined at about 5,800 rpm
and typically will run at that for a few seconds at a time. An outboard will
could very likely run at 5,800 for a 1/2 hour at a time or more, and will be straining like its going uphill.Every power stroke will be exerting twice the force on the internal parts compared to the 2 stroke.

 

[scoutabout]

Re: Upgrade to four stroke,...how much motor on this old boat?

Basic major moving parts in a 2 stroke power head. 5, Basic major moving parts in a 4 stroke power head. At least 28.
4 stroke making oil:: with extended trolling; moisture collects in the oil actually raising the oil level. Usual suggested cure is to operate the motor at higher rpm for a specific time to heat the oil to remove the moisture.
Again fuel use is a wash with each motor excelling at certain speeds.
Do you really think BRP would setup their service intervals and breakin if they would comprimise the integrety of the motor.And it is no service for 300 hours or 3 years not a flat 3 years.I can just about guarantee a 4 stroke won't have the same hole shot as a 2 stroke And if it is setup to match the 2 stroke hole shot it won't match top end. It will also struggle more to push a load.
If the 4 stroke uses less gph(gallons per hour)but takes longer to go the distance it loses its GPH advantage.If there is any GPH advantage it will soon be eaten up by service intervals and service complexity.
Think about it a small sofisticated auto engine is redlined at about 5,800 rpm
and typically will run at that for a few seconds at a time. An outboard will
could very likely run at 5,800 for a 1/2 hour at a time or more, and will be straining like its going uphill.Every power stroke will be exerting twice the force on the internal parts compared to the 2 stroke.

Despite the fact that I'm a 4 stroke owner and love my yammy I found myself nodding in agreement with just about everything you've said here, steelspike...until the last bit where it seems you're suggesting these motors can't handle the revs.

It's my understanding that "automotive-based" marine engines, for lack of a better term like I/Os and the Japanese 4 strokes are beefed up where they need to be to handle extended high rpm running.

 

[steelespike]

Re: Upgrade to four stroke,...how much motor on this old boat?

Despite the fact that I'm a 4 stroke owner and love my yammy I found myself nodding in agreement with just about everything you've said here, steelspike...until the last bit where it seems you're suggesting these motors can't handle the revs.

It's my understanding that "automotive-based" marine engines, for lack of a better term like I/Os and the Japanese 4 strokes are beefed up where they need to be to handle extended high rpm running.

No doubt at least some of the 4 strokes are purpose inhanced.
And every motor 2 or 4 stroke experiences stresses at max rpm
And in my opinion 2 or 4 stroke allways driven at wot will experience
higher wear issues over time I think it should be obvious that the reciprocating weight of the 4 stroke is more severe than any 2 stroke.
I would say that the typical I/O motor is rated to run at rpm about 1,000
below its actual red line rpm in the typical auto application.

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: Upgrade to four stroke,...how much motor on this old boat?

Though I am thinking about a possible new boat purchase by next summer,...if that does not happen for whatever reason,...my alternate plan would be to repower my current boat,which is a 1973 Sea Nymph 14R,...I am wanting to know how much weight this boat can handle on the transom since four stroke
outboards are heavier than two stroke outboards. The boat is rated for 25 HP,but I am afraid that both Mercury and Honda's 25 HP four strokes may be a bit too heavy for this boat. So,having said that,I am thinking along the lines of
either Mercury's 20 HP four stroke outboard or Honda's 20 HP four stroke outboard,probably with electric start. (Now,...should the purchase of a new
boat be possible,I am thinking seriously about Lund's WC-16 with a 25 HP Honda
outboard or Mercury's 25 HP outboard with EFI.) On my Sea Nymph,either motor
would have to be a short shaft motor. Now,...you may be asking the question of
"Why a four stroke outboard?" I can think of four reasons and they are 1;better fuel economy,


MYTH NOT BETTER FUEL ECONOMY IF YA CORNPARE ENGINES WITH THE SAME POWER OUTPUT AS MEASURED BY HULL SPEED N' DISTANCE NOT PROPAGANDA. 4 strokes are not as powerful, (accross the entire power band), as 2 strokes. The propaganda you have swallered, (BTW: tastes like Kool aid ), cornpares a much heavier less powerful engines to a more powerful lighter engines.

If ya understand even a little basic physics MORE POWER requires more fuel to produce the much greater power. Hint: Apples don't directly cornpare to Oranges!!!!

You have swallered the hook line n' sinker from both industry n' Gubmnint. (Hope ya can get the ol' hook out).

Since yer buyin' a much bigger heavier boat fer the hog 4 stroke I guess the hook is stuck tooooo deep.

BTW: I have an 1985 14' Sea Nymph, n' me 25 HP 2 stroke Merc would blow yer heavy hog 4 stroke into the weeds.

Me overpriced $.02 JR


2;quieter operation, 3;no more mixing gas with the oil
and 4; elimination of the expense of two stroke oil and two stroke exhaust fumes which I have grown tired of. I am making Honda my first choice and
Mercury my second choice when it comes to four stroke motors of 25 HP or less! Now some of you may recommend the 25 HP E-TEC,but I am done with two strokes altogether. I have nothing against the E-TEC at all,but I am
going the four stroke route and for good reason!

...