Variable speed motors~just how much longer does the battery last?

keninaz

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I see a lot of manufacturer's hype about 4-5 times longer battery life with their new variable speed or "digital" motors as I have heard them called. And I see nothing digital about them.
But in real life who has ever tested these motors. I mean thrust for thrust, in the same boat with the same batteries?
I am not hearing anybody bragging about lots of increased battery life and I would think that I would.
 

Silvertip

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Re: Variable speed motors~just how much longer does the battery last?

You need to understand that the electronics on most of the newer motors are in the motor housing and may be either digital or analog (MinnKota PowerDrive V2 or simply PowerDrive respectively). The difference in these and non-digital motors is that the voltage fed to the motor is pulsed rapidly depending on the selected speed. So running at slower speeds, digital motors can run a fair bit longer than their non-digital counterparts. Why? Because cutting down voltage to a motor to slow its speed means the wasted voltage is dissipated as heat. That is still consumed energy and is wasted as heat. However, if you run a digital and a non-digital motor wide open, they will both consume the same amount of current since they are both being fed straight DC current as though they were hooked directly to the battery. It is practically impossible to tell with any accuracy exactly how much saving there is. Even if extensive testing was done with some sort of current logging device, how the average user uses the motor would negate those numbers. This is exactly the reason one person can get the fuel economy posted on the window sticker of a new car and another person can't get close. It is how you drive it that makes the difference. As an old duffer, I can tell you my PowerDrives were far superior to the older technology.
 

JB

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Re: Variable speed motors~just how much longer does the battery last?

Silvertip's explanation is as good as any I have read that didn't require a course in DC electricity and basics of digital control.

Great post.
 

Silvertip

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Re: Variable speed motors~just how much longer does the battery last?

Oh crap! I was ready for bed but now I'll lay awake considering this praise. I sleep much better after a good arguement. Can't we switch this discussion to oil or ethanol? Peace!
 

Boatist

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Re: Variable speed motors~just how much longer does the battery last?

I have to agree with JB, Great Post.

So the key to long battery life is have a motor with enough thrust that you only need half the thrust and the power saving circuits can do their job.
 

keninaz

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Re: Variable speed motors~just how much longer does the battery last?

OK, thanks for the information, you may have convinced me. Now to see if you have conivinced my retirement wallet.
I am looking at the Traxxis (non sc) by Minn Kota now.
It appears that I can buy it for around $50 more than the Endura and I might even survive that.
 

bruceb58

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Re: Variable speed motors~just how much longer does the battery last?

So the key to long battery life is have a motor with enough thrust that you only need half the thrust and the power saving circuits can do their job.
The key to long battery life is the efficiency of the motor and has nothing to do with running at half thrust.

Basically, if the motor uses a PWM control(as Silvertip described) there is no wasted energy being given off as heat becuase of a variable resistor being used to control speed.
 

keninaz

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Re: Variable speed motors~just how much longer does the battery last?

Still confusion abounds out there on this subject, or so it seems to me.
I am understanding more and this thread is educational to me at least.
So you are saying that if we get a motor sized correctly for our boat and purpose that will run in the 40 to 80% range of power that is where the efficiency comes in?
 

keninaz

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Re: Variable speed motors~just how much longer does the battery last?

And that's why I think the claims of 4-5 times the battery life are really only with the absolute ideal conditions. That's assuming it's not just a lie in the first place of course.;)
I am just not sure that my little aluminum boat would ever see that much difference with a 40# thruster in place.
For the minimal gain I think I might see in battery life I am thinking I would be better off just having a spare battery on board.
But if I do what I am planning and have a group 29 battery I cannot imagine using that battery up in my typical day of fishing.
But I did see a guy out there last summer and I could hear a genset running. It appeared the guy was charging his battery with an auxiliary charger as he went along.
I guess some people never have enough battery life.:facepalm:
 

fishrdan

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Re: Variable speed motors~just how much longer does the battery last?

$50 more for a digital TM, that's well worth the extra expense. Not only for the longer run time, but not having to buy or lug around another battery. A Traxxis is a wise choice over a MotorGuide Varimax too....

Digital TM's use a PWM (pulse width modulation) controller. The shorter the pulse duration, the slower the motor turns. The wider the pulse duration, the faster the motor turns. When the controller is providing full power there isn't a pulse as it's providing a constant 12V to turn the motor at max speed. (as ST said :D)

slow
[12V]________________[12V]_____________[12V]______________

medium
[----12v----]_________[---12v---]________[---12v---]_________

fast
[----------12v---------|---------12v-------|--------12v--------]
 

keninaz

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Re: Variable speed motors~just how much longer does the battery last?

Yes I understand pulse rep rates quite well. I spent my career in electronics.
As it turns out I had the wrong sales figures and thrust for thrust I can buy the Endura for $120 cheaper.
At that to me it's just not worth it.
 

fishrdan

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Re: Variable speed motors~just how much longer does the battery last?

ooops stepped away and this thread jumped ahead...

With all other things being equal (are they ever?) the answer would be yes. Are we talking two or three times as efficent? No, afraid not. More in the 10% to 15% range for most applications.]

Under normal conditions of trolling at mid range speeds, digital TM's are at least 2-3 times more efficient as an ol' school speed coil TM's. Been there, done that, have the Tshirt to prove it. This is from a real world prospective of using them. I've used a Traxxis, at least 2-3 times longer run time. Used a Varimax, 2-3 longer run times. Heck, I really don't know how long the battery lasted with a digital TM as I never ran down the battery completely dead, 10 hours of fishing and it was still kicking. With a 5-speed TM, the battery would be toast in 4-5 hours.

{edit} If this were a high quality stepper motor that had to maintain precision speed and hold position at low speeds I'd agree with you as it would take more power to control the motor. A stepper motor that's is stopped is eating up current holding position of the motor, something a trolling motor doesn't have to do. A Digital TM's circuitry is pretty crude, compared to a stepper motor controller. Designed along the lines of efficiency opposed to accuracy. {end of edit :D}

And that's why I think the claims of 4-5 times the battery life are really only with the absolute ideal conditions.

I'll will agree with that and think 4-5 longer is a stretch.

BUT, (and this is not ideal conditions, overkill if anything) I put a 24V 70# digital TM on my jon boat to see how it would do. After 12+- hours of trolling the 2 batteries were still 75% charged. The old 40# Endura would have drained both of those batteries in 8-10 hours. Yeah, I agree that not many will experience this type of result as I was running the 70# TM really slow. But it goes to show that digital TM's can be very efficient.

It's just not the improved battery effiency, a digital TM is a much better tool for trolling. Let's say you are bucking the wind and trying to pull your lures at 1.5 MPH. Going up hill (against the wind) the digital will allow you to "dial-in" and bump up to the perfect speed, going down hill the digital TM will allow you to "dial-in" and slow down to the perfect speed. 5-speed motors have fixed speeds, and from what I've experienced, finding the "sweet spot" is hit and miss, #2 too slow, #3 too fast, etc.

I can defiantely understand the money thing and think digital TM's are pretty darn pricey. If you are only going out for 4 hours at a shot, you won't see a huge benefit of getting a digital TM, outside of the variable speed.

(BTW, you are going to hate me for this... BPS had the old model Varimax 40# TM's on blowout special for $125 a couple weeks ago. Even though I don't like this TM, I was really debating on buying one. $125 for a digital TM :eek: I'd put up with the annoyances for that price! Too bad they only lasted for a couple days. You might look around and see if you can find another place blowing them out as MG redesigned several annoying "features" of the Varimax and the new models are going for $250+. For $250 I'd pay the premium and get a Minn Kota)
 

bruceb58

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Re: Variable speed motors~just how much longer does the battery last?

A stepper motor (thats what these basically are) is more efficent at 40% to about 80% of full RPM / Load. Above or below that range and they are about the same as a traditional DC motor.
They could be similar to stepper motors in that they could be multi phase brushless motors with a PWM control for each phase and a phase shift for every pole. It doesn't necessarily have to be a stepper motor though. There are many non phased brushless motors and many regular brushed motors that can have a PWM control on it.
 

bruceb58

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Re: Variable speed motors~just how much longer does the battery last?

If you run your motor at full a lot, you won't notice any difference. If you run it slow a lot, you will notice a huge difference.
 

John_S

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Re: Variable speed motors~just how much longer does the battery last?

Basically, if the motor uses a PWM control(as Silvertip described) there is no wasted energy being given off as heat becuase of a variable resistor being used to control speed.

I have only seen a variable resistor being used on some very old/cheap trolling motors. We had one in an old Herter's 17lb Trust model. Most of the non-digital, lower cost models, use set speeds, such as 5F, 2R, etc. These do not just switch in resistors and turn current into heat. The ones I had, selectively enable windings within the motor. F1 draws less current than each of the higher speeds.

So, if you took the same brand/thrust motor, one having set speeds, and the other PWM control, and dialed the PWM to one of the set speeds, it is probably only a slight efficiency improvement. A WAG would be around 10-15%. If it was 2X, 3X of more, that would have been hard not to notice when I switched to a PWM one.
 

fishrdan

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Re: Variable speed motors~just how much longer does the battery last?

Here's some info straight from the horses mouth. IE: Minn Kota

How does Maximizer (digital TM) compare to a speed coil?

How Speed Coil Motors Work
? Electrical loads are hooked up in series with the motor such that power from the battery is split between supplying the trolling motor and supplying the additional loads(speed coils).
? Power from the battery is fairly constant regardless of the speed setting. Therefore, on speed 1 for example, more power is diverted to the speed coil than is supplied to the motor . This makes the overall motor assembly quite inefficient.
? Extra power consumed by the speed coil produces heat, much like an electrical heating element. The heat is then transferred through the trolling motor housing to the water.
? That is why speed coils are located in the lower motor unit.

Speed Coil Analogy
? You are driving a car at full speed. To slow down, you brake with one foot while continuing to keep your foot down on the gas pedal. By doing this, you continue to burn gas (power) while causing the brakes to heat up.
? Same theory applies with a speed coil motor . The power supply is still constant, but is diverted to the speed coils for the lower speeds which reduces efficiency and run time.

How Maximizer Works
? Since speed coils reduce the power going to the trolling motor , the Maximizer was designed to, eliminate this inefficient speed control method by using rapid on/off switching. The Maximizer is simply a switch that turns the connection to the battery on and off 20,000 times per second.
? If 'on' time is longer compared to 'off', the trolling motor runs receive more power. If 'off' time is longer, the motor gets less power. Since there is minimal power lost to accomplish this, the overall trolling motor is very efficient.

Maximizer Analogy
? You are driving a car fully accelerated. To slow down, you lift your foot off the pedal to decelerate allowing only the proper amount of gas (power) to be used. This burns less gas than the first analogy and does not heat up the brake system.
? Same theory applies to the Maximizer. Only the necessary power to go the desired speed is delivered to the trolling motor providing extreme efficiency and longer running time.

Maximizer Benefits
? Extended Trolling Time
? The Maximizer speed control saves valuable power over a conventional speed coil motor .
? The Maximizer allows more fishing time on your battery charge, up to five times longer running time per battery charge, compared to the 5-speed switch.
? With infinitely variable speed control, the Maximizer allows for proper speeds to be set and maintained while trolling lures for proper presentation.
? Virtual speed adjustments for changing conditions.
? The Maxmizer allows for fine tune speed adjustments.
? The Maximizer allows the user to control boat speed more effectively in changing environments.
 

John_S

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Re: Variable speed motors~just how much longer does the battery last?

? The Maximizer allows more fishing time on your battery charge, up to five times longer running time per battery charge, compared to the 5-speed switch.


So, given that speed five (F5) is full power and would be the same current draw as PWM, they are saying that at F1, the PWM is using five times less current??? Call me a non-believer, and would like to see the data. ;)

Has anyone here experienced even 2X battery life going from a similiar 5-speed to PWM? I didn't see that, but my example is not an apples to apples comparison.
 

fishrdan

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Re: Variable speed motors~just how much longer does the battery last?

I do agree that the claim of up to 5x longer run times is a bit deceiving as most people wouldn't run the TM slow enough to see those results. I think it's quite possible to get 5x the run time in a "lab environment", but who's going to run a TM at it's slowest setting the entire time while fishing?

Has anyone here experienced even 2X battery life going from a similiar 5-speed to PWM? I didn't see that, but my example is not an apples to apples comparison.

Read my (long winded) post above, post #14.

I've seen at least 2x the battery run time, if not 3x, with similar sized TM's

With the ridiculous combination of a 24V 70# TM on my jon boat, I bet I was up around 4x the run time mark. I don't know as it would have (theoretically) taken me around 48 hours of constant trolling to run the batteries down :eek:
 

John_S

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Re: Variable speed motors~just how much longer does the battery last?

Was your MK Endura and MG Varimax the same thrust and on the same boat/load? What was your general trolling speed?

My comparison is a MG transom 37lb to a MG 45lb bow trolling motor. Motor heads are same diameter, but the bow is newer design and hopefully more efficient. The bow has a motor drive which is an intermittant load. I used the same battery from the 37, for a year. I never used the battery indicators, but at the end of a full day of fishing, they both didn't have allot left. I know, not very quantifiable. ;) But, if it was 2X or more, I think that would have been very noticable.
 

ShoestringID

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Re: Variable speed motors~just how much longer does the battery last?

I struggled with the very same questions recently deciding between a Traxxis and Endura troller. There is a substantial price differential for the Maximizer feature. Yes the efficiency/battery drain was a consideration for me, but in the end the infinitely adjustable speed control of the Traxxis won out. I have had a number of Enduras in my day and they are rock solid dependable motors, but I thought back to the many times where based on current and wind conditions speed 2 was just a bit too slow and speed 3 was a bit too fast, etc., etc. That was the decisive argument for me in choosing the Traxxis. I'll hope that the Traxxis continues the same reliability that I have always known from the Endure :)
 
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