Vessel documentation, how are these look like?

Meridien

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May 29, 2003
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9
What kind of docs has to checked during a boat buying process. And how has to be look like? Certificate of origin, Out-of-state registration, etc. What are the key points, I have to be careful? Please advice!
 

WillyBWright

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Dec 29, 2003
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Re: Vessel documentation, how are these look like?

Depends on the country you're keeping the boat in. There are general maritime criteria for international operations, but if you keep the boat on a lake in Germany, then you need to check with Germany (or whichever country).
 

mellowyellow

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Jun 8, 2002
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Re: Vessel documentation, how are these look like?

If buying from the states, I would recommend using<br />an reputable broker. they make their living making<br />sure all paperwork is legitimate and in proper order.<br />get references as not all brokers may be reputable.<br />good luck,<br />M.Y.<br /><br />[edit]<br />beware of the many scams out there, especially<br />ones recently found by one of the members here<br />on ebay.
 

Meridien

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Re: Vessel documentation, how are these look like?

I forgot to mention, I mean the US documentation, especially in Florida state.
 

18rabbit

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Re: Vessel documentation, how are these look like?

Meridien – here is an explanation of the documents and how they work. In a nutshell, the more a boat costs the more you need to know you really own it. Here’s it is:<br /><br />The Certificate Of Origin (automobiles) or Certification Of Build (boats) is a document supplied with every new vehicle/vessel by the builder. It describes the vehicle/vessel, what it is made out of, and where and when it was built. This document often accompanies, or is combined with, a Bill Of Sale. The Bill Of Sale is a statement as to who is the rightful owner of the vehicle/vessel described in the Cert Of Build.<br /><br />If both of the original documents exist together, whoever holds them is the legal owner of the vehicle/vessel.<br /><br />In the United States (that includes Florida…but we’re not sure about Texas :) ) the norm is to borrow money to buy a new car or boat…they are expensive. The lender (bank) is required to send both the above mentioned, original documents to a local government bureaucracy (usually a state’s Dept of Motor Vehicles, or USCG for big boats) as proof the bank owns the boat for the purposes of registering the loan. If a loan is not registered the bank is limited as to how they can force collection of the loan. When the loan is paid in full the bank will notify the government bureaucracy that they (the bank) no longer have an interest in the property. At this point the person that paid the loan can request the return of the original documents that are in the custody of the government bureaucracy.<br /><br />Usually, the government bureaucracy refuses to return the documents and instead issues a Title, something we often call a Pink Slip. It is a little piece of paper that used to be pink, but now can come in any color…like our new money. :) This Title describes the vessel and a statement of who the rightful owner is, as issued by the government. It is neither a Certificate Of Origin/Build nor a Bill Of Sale. You would think that since the Pink Slip is gov’t issued, it would be a controlling document. It is not. We just bought a car that did not have the Pink Slip available so we made our own, everyone signed it and we filed it with the appropriate government bureaucracy. We now own the vehicle with a brand new, government issued Title or Pink Slip…until such time as someone holding those original 2 documents shows up and challenges ownership. We are gambling that those original documents are still in the custody of a government bureaucracy somewhere and will never be produced.<br /><br />Our new project boat was purchased from an auction company that bought it from the United States Navy, who bought it from VT Halter as an OEM part for a boat they built, who bought it from U.S. Marine Inc., a boat yard in Louisiana. Somewhere in all that exists the original Certificate Of Build and Bill Of Sale. We don’t know where. Instead, the U.S. Navy issued a Quasi-Certificate of Build and the auction house issued its own Bill Of Sale. A Quasi-Certificate of Build is a document that says, in affect, “we didn’t build the boat but we claim to own it and in good faith here is all the info that would otherwise accompany the real Certificate Of Build that we should have but can’t produce because we don’t have a clue as to were it is but it doesn’t matter because if we did know were it was we still wouldn’t give it up because no other government bureaucracy does, either.” It works in place of the original Certificate Of Build that should have come from U.S. Marine, Inc.<br /><br />We pay our local government bureaucracy a fee to manage the safe keeping of all these documents for us. It’s called a ‘vehicle registration fee’ for automobiles or a ‘boat registration fee’ for boats. In return, they give us a sticker to apply to the car/boat every year or two. Every time we get a new sticker it is a new color so we fell better about all the money we throw at our local government bureaucracy for managing our papers. We’re damned proud of our colored stickers!!! :) Current registration only means someone is continuing to pay a government bureaucracy to managing the boat’s documentation. It does not prove ownership and it does not mean there is not already an existing dispute as to who is the rightful owner of the boat.<br /><br />I tossed all that out there to illustrate there is nothing secure or final about the documentation that may accompany any boat you purchase. Any or all of the above mentioned documents could easily be forged. In addition to the documents, there are also valid substitute documents. This is why the suggestion of a “broker” is a good one, regardless of what (political) state you get the boat from.<br /><br />A bona-fide broker is insured so if there is ever a challenge to the ownership of the boat you bought, the broker’s insurance either refunds your money to you, or they pay the rightful boat owner to release any interest they have, making you the new rightful owner. The more a boat costs, the more you should be concerned with a ‘clear title’ … that is, paying someone to research the vessel’s documentation history so there will never be a challenge to your ownership of the boat.
 

Meridien

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May 29, 2003
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Re: Vessel documentation, how are these look like?

Dear 18rabbit. Thanks a lot for your nice explaination. I have to realize that the US buerokracy is much more easy going, than our german type system. The real situation is, that I had bought a vessel in FL, but the officiers here do not want to register my boat, because they are require from me a statement from the Florida Reg. office, that the boat was removed from the Florida listing. The broker can not understand my request, because the boat was coming from MS, and was never titled in FL. So the only thing I have is a bill of sale from the broker and nothing else. I was wondering what kind of docs should I have to require from the broker to prove my ownership here in Europe. That was the real reason behing my topic's question.
 

18rabbit

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Re: Vessel documentation, how are these look like?

It may help to think of each of the States as independent countries with their own government. The boat was moved from one government (MS) to another (FL) then to another (Germany). Any document you need will probably come from MS, the last government to recognize the vessel, not FL.<br /><br />Not all vessels require the same type of registration. In some cases a boat does not need to be registered at all, even when moving from one state to another.<br /><br />It is possible you will have a valid Bill Of Sale from someone in Florida but the documents in Mississippi are registered with someone else’s name.<br /><br />What kind of boat are we talking about? Make/model/size?<br /><br />Exactly what document(s) does your government want?<br /><br />Do you need an Apostille for any of the documentation?
 

Bondo

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Re: Vessel documentation, how are these look like?

18rabbit,<br /> Great Post on the "Paper Trail".........<br />BTW, What's Apostille ?????
 

18rabbit

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Re: Vessel documentation, how are these look like?

An Apostille is a government’s specific certification of authenticity for any document that is to be use internationally. It is as per an international conventional agreement. Both the US (early 1980’s) and Germany (?) are signed on.<br /><br />In the US, each of the 50 states has their own Apostille and they can only be issued by the office of the Secretary of State. None are alike, all cost money.<br /><br />If you were to present a certified copy of your birth certificate to an authority in any country that is a member to the agreement, they would reject the document as a possible forgery. You need to go back to office of the Secretary of State for the state that issued the original birth certificate and have an Apostille attached…and pay for it. Then they will accept it.<br /><br />Ironically, Apostilles are easier to forge than the original document. I’m convinced it’s just another way to get more money out us.
 

BillP

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Re: Vessel documentation, how are these look like?

18rabbit is talking general type paperwork for business transactions of personal property and it varies between states. Some issue a title with only a bill of sale, etc.<br /><br />The best and safest boat purchases are ones secured by US Federal govt processes. These processes give registration as a "Documented" vessel. Basically, 99% of marine lenders require this documentation on big boats. It presides over anything an individual or state offers as ownership. <br /><br />There are other legal advantages and disadvantages to being documented...such as the vessels crew has protection by the US govt in foreign waters. A private (state title only)vessel basically is on it's own. OR it can be seized during wartime and be used as a military vessel. Search the web for a detailed explanation...it's too long for me to post.
 
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