Water softener causing air ingress into lines...

[generator12]

@#$%#!! Water softener is about two years old. The prior one (and even prior to it in prior house) would cause air to enter the house water lines while recharging. Must be when the injector is drawing salt water back into the bed - or so I assume. Now my newer one has begun to do it. Turn the cold water on to fill the coffee pot in the morning and it sputters and chugs until the air is expelled. Sometimes it breaks loose some particulates as well.

I've done minor repairs on these things when iron plugged them up, and so forth, although the "Rust Remover" pellets seem to have solved that. But I've never tackled the air ingress problem.

Any suggestions? (Morton Salt Saver softener)

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: Water softener causing air ingress into lines...

http://www.catalystsystems.org/?p=75

http://www.catalystsystems.org/?p=203

 

[rbh]

Re: Water softener causing air ingress into lines...

You don't by chance have a well do you???

Two weeks ago I put a fresh air charge in the preasure tank, and since then I am getting air at my taps as well.

 

[Eric 3.7LX Alpha 1]

Re: Water softener causing air ingress into lines...

You don't by chance have a well do you???

Two weeks ago I put a fresh air charge in the preasure tank, and since then I am getting air at my taps as well.

Your well tank diaphram has ruptured and needs to be replaced. The air charge and water storage in the tank are kept separate by a rubber type bladder.

That will cause the pump to turn on and off nearly immediately when you open a faucet upstairs in the house. Will eventually burn the well pump.

 

[Eric 3.7LX Alpha 1]

Re: Water softener causing air ingress into lines...

@#$%#!! Water softener is about two years old. The prior one (and even prior to it in prior house) would cause air to enter the house water lines while recharging. Must be when the injector is drawing salt water back into the bed - or so I assume. Now my newer one has begun to do it. Turn the cold water on to fill the coffee pot in the morning and it sputters and chugs until the air is expelled. Sometimes it breaks loose some particulates as well.

I've done minor repairs on these things when iron plugged them up, and so forth, although the "Rust Remover" pellets seem to have solved that. But I've never tackled the air ingress problem.

Any suggestions? (Morton Salt Saver softener)

The water level in the salt holding tank is adjustable by a float the level may be too low. As the softener pulls the brine water from the salt tank, the water level is low and the float drops refilling the tank. If that refill valve attached to the float is blocked with some sediment or not adjusted high enough it will not refill the salt tank with enough water, That is where I would look for the problem. There may be a mark on the salt tank where the water level should be at when full.

The tall softener tanks are pressurized and cannot get air from them, if there was a leak on them they would leak water out of them not suck air into them.

Or.. The air could be from the well itself. Do you have a bypass on the softener system. You could bypass the system and see if the problem is resolved.

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: Water softener causing air ingress into lines...

Your well tank diaphram has ruptured and needs to be replaced. The air charge and water storage in the tank are kept separate by a rubber type bladder.

That will cause the pump to turn on and off nearly immediately when you open a faucet upstairs in the house. Will eventually burn the well pump.

Maybe...but it depends what type of tank he has.

 

[Eric 3.7LX Alpha 1]

Re: Water softener causing air ingress into lines...

True, wasn't think of that old type of tank. Could be Copper or Brass.$$

If that is what he has I would recommend replacement as well.

 

[rbh]

Re: Water softener causing air ingress into lines...

Your well tank diaphram has ruptured and needs to be replaced. The air charge and water storage in the tank are kept separate by a rubber type bladder.

That will cause the pump to turn on and off nearly immediately when you open a faucet upstairs in the house. Will eventually burn the well pump.

This tank is so old I do not think it even has a bladder, and if it did it is long shot to heck.
What we do is the inlet pipe at the bottom of the tank T's with a tap fixture on the front, so we drain all the water out of the tank close the shut off valve at the pump and on the outlet pipe.
Take the handy dandy garden hose to air compresser hose thingy, connect to the tap and pump in our 35 psi air charge.


Now that I think about it, did I shut off the outlet valve all the way as it took an awfully long time to get the air charge up to 35 psi???? OOOPS :redface:

 

[rbh]

Re: Water softener causing air ingress into lines...

True, wasn't think of that old type of tank. Could be Copper or Brass.$$

If that is what he has I would recommend replacement as well.

Looks galvinized on the outside.

 

[rbh]

Re: Water softener causing air ingress into lines...

OH, thanks for the reminder .
Must put new light bulb in well house!!!!--it is minus 11 C outside right now BRRRR

 

[generator12]

Re: Water softener causing air ingress into lines...

Eric,

The pump is cycling normally - on at 40 PSI and off at 65 PSI, with dwell capacity between them. Also, this is not occurring every day, but only following a softener recharge.

Thanks for all the info./suggestions guys. You've given me something with which to work. I'm going to apply the information as needed until this is fixed.

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Water softener causing air ingress into lines...

Eric,

The pump is cycling normally - on at 40 PSI and off at 65 PSI, with dwell capacity between them. Also, this is not occurring every day, but only following a softener recharge.

Thanks for all the info./suggestions guys. You've given me something with which to work. I'm going to apply the information as needed until this is fixed.

What is the brand of water softener?

Any air that is drawn into the resin tank at the tail end of the brining process should be expelled during the backwash rinse.

There is no other time that a water softener could introduce air into itself.

I'd suspect air coming out of your non bladder pressure tank while the softener is in the final downward rinse. Once that occurs you have air trapped in the top of the resin tank that comes out when the softener valve has returned to the service position and you open faucets in the house.

 

[Eric 3.7LX Alpha 1]

Re: Water softener causing air ingress into lines...

What is the brand of water softener?

Any air that is drawn into the resin tank at the tail end of the brining process should be expelled during the backwash rinse.

There is no other time that a water softener could introduce air into itself.

I'd suspect air coming out of your non bladder pressure tank while the softener is in the final downward rinse. Once that occurs you have air trapped in the top of the resin tank that comes out when the softener valve has returned to the service position and you open faucets in the house.

We don't know if his well tank has a bladder or not,... the earlier post was by rbh.

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: Water softener causing air ingress into lines...

Not sure if we know that OP is on a well....could be municipal if he is in Milwaukee suburbs....

 

[generator12]

Re: Water softener causing air ingress into lines...

Yes, I'm on a well. The tank was replaced about a year ago.

I've now seen the air problem occurring in mid-afternoon - and the softener is set for early AM regeneration. I'm going to have to do some checking/testing to be sure, but I'm beginning to think that earlier posters were correct - that the air is coming from the tank rather than the softener.

I've got to look the piping over really well and figure a way to isolate it to one or the other.

It's an interesting problem - but I'd rather not have it!

 

[generator12]

Re: Water softener causing air ingress into lines...

One other thing - as I mentioned earlier, the tank is holding pressure.

It's just this d_mned air surging...

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Water softener causing air ingress into lines...

One other thing - as I mentioned earlier, the tank is holding pressure.

It's just this d_mned air surging...

We still do not know if you have a captive air tank or a bladder tank. Also if your 'new' tank has a bladder and your well system had an air charger system that was not disabled, you could be filling your bladder with air instead of water.

If your tank is the older style, straight walled captive air tank and you have an air charger system on the well line but the air bleed off valve is not working or not there, you will get excess air in the water.

...and btw, how do you know that the tank is holding pressure? The only way to know for sure is to shut off the well pump and drain the tank til no more water comes out, then check the pressure.

 

[Brokenrod]

Re: Water softener causing air ingress into lines...

Heres an idea. I was told this is whats happening to mine. I have a 35gal. bladder tank w/ no water softener. The water will spit and gurgle so bad sometimes, that it'll knock a glass out of your hand if you have it under the faucet.
After an inspection, i was told that my standpipe?( the pipe in the ground coming from the well) has a crack and is sucking air.- NOT a cheap fix. Whats worse is i have a deep well. I was told that whoever dug the well passed up a good clean source of water and went deeper to a sediment laden well. Our water is basically liquid rock. I've never had a softener last more than 3 yrs.

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Water softener causing air ingress into lines...

.... Our water is basically liquid rock. I've never had a softener last more than 3 yrs.

There are many types and combinations of pre-filters and or strainers that could prevent that and keep a water softener protected from any particulate matter.

....and yes a crack or a break in the well drop line, below the check valve, could be responsible for driving air into the bladder tank. Depending on the size of the leak, it would also extend the pump run time to refill the pressure tank. It would be as if a faucet were running at the same time the pump was running.

If the leak were anywhere above the check valve, that would cause the pump to continually auto cycle. This is not a problem that generator apparently has although we still do not know if he has checked the pressure tank precharge, properly.

 

[rbh]

Re: Water softener causing air ingress into lines...

Heres an idea. I was told this is whats happening to mine. I have a 35gal. bladder tank w/ no water softener. The water will spit and gurgle so bad sometimes, that it'll knock a glass out of your hand if you have it under the faucet.
After an inspection, i was told that my standpipe?( the pipe in the ground coming from the well) has a crack and is sucking air.- NOT a cheap fix. Whats worse is i have a deep well. I was told that whoever dug the well passed up a good clean source of water and went deeper to a sediment laden well. Our water is basically liquid rock. I've never had a softener last more than 3 yrs.

We still do not know if you have a captive air tank or a bladder tank. Also if your 'new' tank has a bladder and your well system had an air charger system that was not disabled, you could be filling your bladder with air instead of water.

If your tank is the older style, straight walled captive air tank and you have an air charger system on the well line but the air bleed off valve is not working or not there, you will get excess air in the water.

...and btw, how do you know that the tank is holding pressure? The only way to know for sure is to shut off the well pump and drain the tank til no more water comes out, then check the pressure.

Just to add a couple of things
If you have a leak in your bladder or no bladder at all the air charge in your tank will diminish after awhile (water will pull out/mix with the air)
and if your pump is not big enough to keep up with demand there goes your air charge as well.
If you have an older jet pump you may be finding that it cycles on and off due to the foot valve leaking, eventually you will loose your prime.

You may want to try lifting up the submersible pump/jet pump foot valve till you get above the particulate area (try and find that sweat spot were the waters separate muddy from clear, hopefully there is not alot of ground preasure pushing the dirty water higher in the well.


Oh and your stand pipe, how deep is the well????
If you have a submersible pump and the well is less than 100 feet deep and the original pipe used was thick wall flexable pvc (the black stuff not ridgid white/grey)
Two guys can re and re that chunk in a couple hours.