What did I do? Totally dead. Messing with tilt relay.

[MassillonBuckeye]

Volvo aq 120b with aq270 outdrive. So I was messing with tilt relay(hitting switch makes tilt click, but motor doesn't run) and removed one of the relays to clean it. Opened relay up, wire brushed(was pretty corroded), checked movement and re-installed. Now turning the key to engage lights etc doesn't do anything. No hour meter or anything. Could I have blown something? I left the battery hooked up through all of this. I checked big fuse and breaker at the engine, fuses behind instrument panel and have 12v at battery, checked main battery connectors etc. Where should I start with this? Has a three wire keyed ignition switch. Thanks for any input.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: What did I do? Totally dead. Messing with tilt relay.

You learn how to use a voltmeter and follow the current from the battery through the trim electrical system. When you lose it you found the problem. Very likely wire brushing the internals of a relay is not good for them. You very likely broke one of the wires on the relay coil. Check for voltage at the relay coil with the switch activated. No voltage its a circuit/fuse/breaker problem. Voltage present it is a relay problem.

 

[MassillonBuckeye]

Re: What did I do? Totally dead. Messing with tilt relay.

You learn how to use a voltmeter and follow the current from the battery through the trim electrical system. When you lose it you found the problem. Very likely wire brushing the internals of a relay is not good for them. You very likely broke one of the wires on the relay coil. Check for voltage at the relay coil with the switch activated. No voltage its a circuit/fuse/breaker problem. Voltage present it is a relay problem.

Thanks for the reply. I have a decent multimeter. I saw a quick walkthrough from the battery out. Can you point me to a good post on this troubleshooting process? What should I be getting at the ignition switch posts? This relay would kill all power to accessories as well? Yeah, I noticed the wire is pretty thin, but dont think I broke it anywhere. Hmm. Boat is also dead when relay is removed. Its out right now and its still lights out.

 

[fucawi]

Re: What did I do? Totally dead. Messing with tilt relay.

well here is the diagram without which you cannot check what should be live and neg and what is connected to what ...

Test Dont Guess or in your case Test dont Mess !!!!

 

[Silvertip]

Re: What did I do? Totally dead. Messing with tilt relay.

Your boat has a 12 volt electrical system. A live circuit anywhere should measure 12 volts minus any small voltage drop due to the length of the wire run and any corrosion. Here are some measurement points.

1) Across the battery = 12.6 volts fully charged.
2) Starter solenoid where large red battery cable connects = 12.6 volts
3) Fuse for the engine harness going to the console = 12.6 volts INTO the fuse.
4) 12.6 volts at the "B" terminal on the ignition switch. If not present, and I suspect it isn't, the issue is at the engine and very likely the fuse. Make sure you check you check ALL of them if there is more than one. And make sure the ONE (if that's all there are} is good. Replace it. Even with the relay out, the engine should start.

 

[MassillonBuckeye]

Re: What did I do? Totally dead. Messing with tilt relay.

Your boat has a 12 volt electrical system. A live circuit anywhere should measure 12 volts minus any small voltage drop due to the length of the wire run and any corrosion. Here are some measurement points.

1) Across the battery = 12.6 volts fully charged.
2) Starter solenoid where large red battery cable connects = 12.6 volts
3) Fuse for the engine harness going to the console = 12.6 volts INTO the fuse.
4) 12.6 volts at the "B" terminal on the ignition switch. If not present, and I suspect it isn't, the issue is at the engine and very likely the fuse. Make sure you check you check ALL of them if there is more than one. And make sure the ONE (if that's all there are} is good. Replace it. Even with the relay out, the engine should start.

Gotcha. Ok, so the relay isn't causing this problem at the moment. Gotcha. Hmm. Battery is a little low. Need to get my charger back from neighbor haha. Didn't check starter solenoid so I'll do that this afternoon. I did check the large fuse at the engine and it was fine, did not verify voltage there though. The ignition switch is a Cole hersee(sticks way out from the dash panel ugh) http://www.jamestowndistributors.co...ilyName=Cole+Hersee+Ignition+Starter+Switches . I'll look again at the switch but I don't think I was getting power from any of the three terminals.

Just to add to the confusion, there are a number of inline fuses behind instrument panel. When I opened one of them to check, not sure which sadly, it did make the hour meter start ticking for a few seconds. The fuse itself looked ok. I should have noted which gauge it went to. Bah!


Thank you for the diagram Fucawi. I had seen that one but I sort of passed it off looking for another because the color of my wires are a bit different. I didn't know if that meant I had a different circuit or not. After cross referencing relays and circuit for about 3 hours last night, I have come to the conclusion that regardless of color, year, make, model, whether its on land, in the air or on water, they are all the same haha. I'll also be sure to post all of my cross referenced part numbers here for the next bloke whos tilt/trim takes a dive(hopefully Not literally!!)

Thanks for the input guys. Going to order some relays. I was hoping to find them locally for a decent price. Pretty sure that was the initial problem as I removed the tilt motor and verified it spins connected directly to 12v. The relays were heavily corroded from the relay housing being flooded. P/O apparently forgot to screw the top back on it and looks like it filled with rain water. Both relays were oozing rust.

 

[fucawi]

Re: What did I do? Totally dead. Messing with tilt relay.

It is also worth noting and almost always forgotten that because of the high resistance of a digital ohm meter at 10 Meg ohms that it can give very misleading readings on circuits with corrosion, A 100ohm bad connectiion which stops everything working has no effect when added to 10 million ohms,,,,,,,,still reads... 12.6v The old fashioned analogue meter is more reliable even a test lamp is better if you just want to know is something is live or not ...
Relays at your auto store ..single pole change over is what you want 12v coil continuously rated ...

 

[Silvertip]

Re: What did I do? Totally dead. Messing with tilt relay.

You don't need to be concerned about the ignition switch or the starter solenoid as the problem. You DO need check for voltage AT them. The large red battery cable connects to one of the large terminals on the solenoid. That terminal should also have a smaller gauge wire on it. If you have 12 volts at that point, follow the smaller wire as it is the feed to main wire harness and at some point is also the charging lead from the charging system Look for fuses in that line. The fuses at the console DO NOT have anything to do with the engine not starting. They are for accessories. Engine fuses and circuit breakers are at the engine and you are apparently overlooking one.

 

[MassillonBuckeye]

Re: What did I do? Totally dead. Messing with tilt relay.

You don't need to be concerned about the ignition switch or the starter solenoid as the problem. You DO need check for voltage AT them. The large red battery cable connects to one of the large terminals on the solenoid. That terminal should also have a smaller gauge wire on it. If you have 12 volts at that point, follow the smaller wire as it is the feed to main wire harness and at some point is also the charging lead from the charging system Look for fuses in that line. The fuses at the console DO NOT have anything to do with the engine not starting. They are for accessories. Engine fuses and circuit breakers are at the engine and you are apparently overlooking one.

Roger that.

Good tip Fucawi for those of us using digital multimeters. I need to get something nice and 'analogue-y' to check/set dwell anyhow.. Good excuse for a new toy, I mean tool!!

 

[fucawi]

Re: What did I do? Totally dead. Messing with tilt relay.

If you put a 22k resistor across the terminals your digital meter will be good for all auto/marine test work

 

[MassillonBuckeye]

Re: What did I do? Totally dead. Messing with tilt relay.

If you put a 22k resistor across the terminals your digital meter will be good for all auto/marine test work

Would you mind elaborating a bit? ie; how to go about this, why it makes a difference? Sorry for my lack my basic circuitry.

 

[MassillonBuckeye]

Re: What did I do? Totally dead. Messing with tilt relay.

Found out tonight that my "totally dead" wasn't quite totally dead. I had power going to the instrument panel, just not the ignition switch. The blower and bilge didn't work because I never hooked the grounds back up to the battery when swapping battery in and out. These supposed to connect directly to the negative battery terminal like that? Nav lights worked etc. After some testing with test light, I found the wire coming out the back end of the inline fuse going to the Battery terminal on the ignition switch was bad. Seems to be a theme on this instrument panel. I'm going to get a better crimper and some ends and goto town I think. Its not completely hacked up, but the ends are shoddy enough to be giving me issues obviously. So I re-cut and re-crimped the end with which I'll replace tomorrow and see if I can get the dash to light up again. I don't see the ignition switch in the circuit for the tilt motor at all. When I replaced the working motor and one of the relays, I didn't even get a click when flipping the tilt switch. The warning light wasn't lit either. Not seeing the warning light in that circuit either come to think of it. This have something to do with the missing Battery lead at the ignition switch? I suppose I'll find out tomorrow when I re-install that lead.

 

[MassillonBuckeye]

2 new relays later, I have a working tilt. 2 issues. The majority of the off brand universal changeover relays are slightly too large to fit into the enclosure right. Can't get the top back on to allow for the limit switch to work since the only thing that holds it in place is the top. I might have found a suitable replacement today manuf. by Flosser. Going to try to cram it all back in there tomorrow. Not sure I agree with this design heh. Pretty cramped in that thing.

 

[fucawi]

Re: What did I do? Totally dead. Messing with tilt relay.

USING DIGITAL METER

The digital meter has a resistance of 10 million ohms ..intended to be used on electronics like a TV circuit board and not disturb what is going on .....

Say you have a corroded connection of 5000 ohms ..clearly nothing works BUT your digital meter can make a connection through this and still reads say 12v as 10 million + 5000 is not a lot different to 10 million . Hence you think you have 12v but in boat terms you dont .

The old analogue meters were 1000 ohms per volt so a 20 v meter was 20 000 ohms.
on a good connection it reads 12v but with 5000 ohms added for the bad connection it only reads 9v so you can see there is a problem ....
So if you put a 22 thousand ohm resistor across the terminals of your meter you will simulate the old style meter... I have a set of leads with one built in for auto/marine testing having been caught out in the early days of digital meters ..Hope that is clear ....

 

[MassillonBuckeye]

Re: What did I do? Totally dead. Messing with tilt relay.

Roger that. I'll see if I can stab something together with that resistor. Do you have a pic or some guidance on how to do so? Just cut into the insulation toward the base of the wires and tape in a resistor? Thats how I'm picturing it. Although I think I might just order an Actron Dwell, RPM, volt meter from Jegs. $35.00. I'm going to need the dwell when I get to that part of the motor. I'm still putting the tilt and carburetor back together.

I think I have some impedence issues at the dash though because to get the thing to finally light up, it took opening and replacing the ignition fuse a good 7-8 times before MOST of the gauges(fuel not lit again) lit and ignition engaged in the Accessory position. Which apparently is necessary for the Tilt to get its power. Ignition has to be in the On or Accessory position unlike the pumps/blower/lights. So yeah, no blown fuses, I just had to replace a small piece of wire, 1 crimped ring terminal and plug and unplug a bunch. I was starting to think the fuse assembly itself had to be bad(not getting power out the back) but all it is is a fuse holder, spring and contacts at each end. Should I douse the whole back of the instrument panel with some electrical parts cleaner??

 

[bassnron]

Re: What did I do? Totally dead. Messing with tilt relay.

I don't know if you figured out your problem, but I might have just done the same thing. I was trying to jumper my trim to check out the motor and some how lost power. I returned the relays and system was still "dead". I remembered checking a small fuse (1/2" glass near the starter) on the port side of the motor earlier just for maintainance. I chcked it after I lost power and I had blown it. Just a thought... I have to go get replacement so I don't know if it will help.

 

[Don S]

Re: What did I do? Totally dead. Messing with tilt relay.

I have moved this from the electrical forum to the Volvo forum. The wiring diagram given by fucawi is nothing like a 270 mechanical lift motor wiring.
Here is the proper wiring diagram for the 270.
I did put color to it, just makes it easier to read.

View attachment 270 Mech lift wiring.pdf

 

[dennis461]

Re: What did I do? Totally dead. Messing with tilt relay.

2 new relays later, I have a working tilt. 2 issues. The majority of the off brand universal changeover relays are slightly too large to fit into the enclosure right. Can't get the top back on to allow for the limit switch to work since the only thing that holds it in place is the top. I might have found a suitable replacement today manuf. by Flosser. Going to try to cram it all back in there tomorrow. Not sure I agree with this design heh. Pretty cramped in that thing.

You need to buy this one, cut the tab off.
Use sharp knife or hacksaw blade to cut the plastic, the metal peice fall away leaving an exact fit relay.
There are several sizes on the market, most stores do not carry this small one.




********* - A2C 775 Universal Automotive Relay
To see it installed, go here..http://s596.photobucket.com/albums/t... tilt control/

 

[MassillonBuckeye]

Re: What did I do? Totally dead. Messing with tilt relay.

Well my issue had more to do with other connections being shoddy. It was something else at the dash failing which just happened to coincide with me messing with the tilt. I took the whole dash out and into the house to re-work all connections.

The tilt is it's own circuit I believe so everything else should work regardless of the status of these relays etc. My relays were completely rusted as the top of the whole enclosure was off and rain water had its way. I replaced both relays, crammed everything back in and screwed the top back on. And have since sold that boat.

The relay in the pic looks like the one I used. You have to shave off that little plastic bracket on the back that holds that metal mouting tab. I used a razor. It then fits right down into the housing. Most aftermarket relays are a tad too big. I found mine at a local Import car parts place. Half as much as the "big box" store relays as well.

 

[74bayliner]

Re: What did I do? Totally dead. Messing with tilt relay.

ive heard don mention this on other posts.. but yeah the aftermarket ones wont fit in there..
I would have just bought new ones (in fact I will be buying new ones when my tilt motor gets rebuilt...)
i think last time i checked they were only about 15 bucks a piece (2 different PN's if i looked correctly) from here on Iboats and Volvopentastore.com goodluck sir