Winterization Fuel Storage

achris

achris

More fish than mountain goat
Joined
May 19, 2004
Messages
27,468
HT32BSX115 said:
Yeah. Someone already did that test. He found that condensation is an old wives tale......
Click to expand...

A sample size of 'one' is not a test, it's anecdotal at best.

wellcraft-classic210 said:
...Not sure how long it takes for fuel to become " old and corrosive under various conditions " but I can say its worth avoiding.
Click to expand...

That very much depends on temperature... The hotter, the quicker the fuel goes 'sour'. Adding oil accelerates the process..

But yes, sour fuel is nasty stuff.

Chris.......
 
Q

QBhoy

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Let there be no doubt. Water contamination caused by moisture and condensation build up in a half filled tank...is no myth. It’s one of the bread and butter jobs that keeps the local mercury guy busy come the spring where I live. He almost relies on all the boats that cut out and need the fuel drained and carb cleaned after the first day out in spring.
Its a really really common thing here in Scotland. We can see temp differences of 20oc in a 24 hour period on occasion and just as varied humidity levels.

Either that or we have a serious serious issue with some toe rag that routinely gets his kicks going around pouring water in all the fuel tanks...funny though...he never seems to touch the boats that have their tanks empty or full over winter. Go figure !!
 
H

HT32BSX115

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achris said:
A sample size of 'one' is not a test, it's anecdotal at best.




Chris.......
Click to expand...
It isn't clear he based his determination on a one time "test" It appears it was his experience from many years. His conclusion was just a determination after considering the rather simple physics involved.


I have some examples as well having lived in an area where the winter time temps were freezing (and below) and summer time temps that were as high as 110F.

I worked at a small airport on aircraft that spent most of the time parked outside. The wing fuel tanks were exposed to all the temp variations and were almost never parked full.

We never had condensation problems at all. The only time water was found in fuel tanks was from either the aircraft getting washed or heavy rain with leaking fuel caps.

The only detectable condensation was on the outside of the tanks. After the airplane sat outside and the fuel became cold soaked during a particularly cold night, the next day if the humidity was high enough, water would condense on the outside of the fuel tanks because of the cold fuel inside.

But we never found water inside the tanks due to this.

Internal marine type fuel tanks would be even further insulated from ambient temp swings
 
P

Pzilly

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Aug 29, 2019
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13
This will be debated on and on, but key is non ethanol fuel, and a half tank of any fuel but especially E10 it is worse then all full or all empty.

a friend owns a large power sports dealership and told me before main stream ethanol in pump gas his service center did 2-3 fuel system and or carb clean out per season, now he does about 100 to 150 which is down from 200 plus back when E10 first came out as some customers listen and if they don't do non ethanol everytime it's at least ran1 or 2 tanks before season end hmmmm...

case in point this past spring I borrowed a friend's old edger, he said you can have it but it hasn't been started in 8 or so years, 4th pull fired right up but it had non ethanol in it, now i run only non ethanol in my small seasonal equipment because i own a lot of it, this spring I tried to start my big pressure washer, and it was a no go, well I forgot my buddy borrowed it last year, and of course he used ethanol gas, tore it apart and corroded like hell, again hmmm.

end of last season our marina had this same debate, some all empty some all full, some doesn't matter, now oddly enough this spring we had 4 boats w huge water in their tanks, one was the perfect case study, because last year the non ethanol fuel truck ran out of fuel half way through a guy's second 100 gallon tank, so he stored with one full of non ethanol and one half full of part Non E and a little E10 fuel, first trip out he lost the starboard engine, thought it was motor trouble,then switch both engines over to the port tank, both engines ran fine, next day we pulled fuel separators, the full tank had some drops, the half tank was full of water and we pumped 7 gallons of water out of that 115 gallon tank. Now where does water come from if boat is dry and under roof but not climate controlled????

2 weeks later one of the fellows who you always see w a red can carrying gas station gas to his boat every weekend had issues, pulled his seperator and it was full, then pumped 3 gallons out of his 30 gallon run about tank, I asked how much fuel was in it over the winter and he replied "about half i think". This boat also under cover...hmmm

last point was my very own new to me boat, I didn't own it last year my friend did, he sold it this year due to a move, he has OCD and the boat is a solid 9 (except for my current engine situation, but we worked that out, and that also could have been caused by condensation), and price was more then right. On my first trip out went to get on plane and stutter city, back to dock, pulled seperator and it was full on both motors. I have a pump with w a weight on it, dropped it to bottom of tank and wife and I pulled 5 gallons of water out. What did all these boats have in common? Half or quarter full fuel tanks and a crazy winter last year, we had weeks in the single digits,then weeks in upper 50 low 60s. Condesation exists..... Now several of our "doesn't matter" members have changed their tune.

I know it exists from years of owning snowmobiles, taking cold sleds into warm garages caused a lot of it, we could see it on and in the tanks, after we started our 90% and no ethanol policy we have never had another issue, this past winters constant fluctuations in temp had same effect on the boats.

I am a 90% full of non ethanol guy, 90% to allow room for expansion and whether you believe in condesation or not a full tank really can't make any, some will say well I get stale fuel and it runs rough, unless your running a high compression engine good non E fuel will remain solid for a year or more, and non ethanol because it has a long shelf life, and does not draw and create water like E10 does. I do not use any fuel stabilzers as most are junk, if you happen to notice stabil has a "new" formula because they were getting debunked by a lot of shops, and for the sea foam guys, sea foam is decent on the fuel, system, but if you get water in your tank it actually creates a layer between the water and fuel that is non combustible, so save your money, best thing we've found for a little water in fuel is 92% isopropyl alcohol, it will actually blend and burn, but if to much water just get a 12 volt electrical pump for switching a carb from mechanical to electric and some 1/4" clear hose, weight it and drop it to the bottom and you will see when the water is gone, hell i did so good this year I actually found little wire strands and nick knacks from back when boat was built.

I use this method for the 40 plus engine equipped things I own from boats and cars to jet skis and lawn mowers, concrete saws etc as a lot of our stuff sits dormant for many months between uses, works really well, either way you go the key is non ethanol during storage. Plus if your in a dry climate, or controlled storage you have a lot less to worry about.
 
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HT32BSX115

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Pzilly said:
Condesation exists..... Now several of our "doesn't matter" members have changed their tune.

I know it exists from years of owning snowmobiles, taking cold sleds into warm garages caused a lot of it, we could see it on and in the tanks, after we started our 90% and no ethanol policy we have never had another issue, this past winters constant fluctuations in temp had same effect on the boats.
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I have another example of cold fuel condensation. "Fuel Frost" happens all the time on aircraft that have been flying at high altitudes. ( I have *some* experience here having worked for a major airline for 30 years and 24 years flying transport aircraft in the USAF) It's called CSFF (COLD SOAKED FUEL FROST)

It is common to operate at altitudes as high as 41000ft for hours in modern aircraft. After flying at 41000 for several hours, where the outside temp can be -40C and lower, because the aluminum wing-skin is in direct contact with the fuel, the fuel temp can be -20C to -30C on landing.

A descent and landing in area where the humidity can be literally as high as 100% (such as.....it's raining at the destination and the temp is warm)
The outside of the tank, top and bottom, will actually look like it was dusted with snow from direct condensation! If you scraped it all off into a container, it could be as much as a 1/2 gallon of water if you collected it! All formed in less than 30 min!

And if it's actually raining, the water that contacts the outside of the tank will immediately freeze and all of it MUST be removed prior to the next flight!


I have, many times had to have the airplane de-iced prior to the next flight because the frost or ice did not melt. The fuel temp never went above freezing even after sitting for an hour on the ground and mixed with warm fuel during refueling.

Fuel frost on the bottom of the wing was permissible if it was 1/8" depth or less on the bottom of the wing but never allowed on the top of the wing or anywhere else. Some airlines required any frost (condensed or otherwise) to be "removed" by de-icing. My company was authorized by Boeing and the FAA to operate with up 1/8 frost on the bottom(only) of the wing due to cold-soaked fuel)

WE NEVER WORRIED ABOUT IT INSIDE THE TANK, because condensation inside the tank didn't happen.

So from experience, and after reading the David Pascoes excellent article https://www.yachtsurvey.com/myth_of_condensation_in_fuel_tanks.htm ......He proved what he already observed and suspected by doing some simple physics calculations.

I would say that he's right.

Water found INSIDE a fuel tank is from either leaking in or or someone pouring it in (in the form of water-contaminated fuel)

It's not going to form out of "thin air" (mainly because there's little or no water vapor inside the tank to begin with)

It will absolutely condense on the outside if the conditions are right. (temp of surface, dew-point of the air is correct etc) AND if the fuel is well below freezing, it will be frost or ice.


E10 (10% ethanol) gasoline.

I have a 5500w generator I bought new in 1990. with a 10hp BS single cyl engine. It's been run on E10 for as long as I've owned it.

I've never used any fuel additive in the fuel, but I have always turn the fuel supply line OFF and let it run until it quit before storing. leaving gasoline in a small engine carburetor (E10 or no) is always a problem.

Just run any little engine out of fuel before you shut it down.

I do the same with my boat when I put it away for the winter. I park it with 1/4 fuel or less, remove the fuel filter and let it run (on a flush adapter) until it quits.

Once it dies, I screw on a new filter.

The approx 10 gallons of gas left in the 44 gallon tank is there until fill it up with gas around 10 months later.

I suppose I could put some snake oil in the gas that will sit for 10 months or so, but I never have. I am not sure it's really all that beneficial. (It is beneficial to the people that sell it though!!)


Cheers,


Rick
 
N

nickmo

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Apr 2, 2010
Messages
117
Alright, I guess I'm going to throw my 2 cents in.
I own a 1999 boat since new. I live in an area where non ethanol doesn't exist. So my boat has had e-10 since new. I've always kept the tanks full every winter. Beside overflowing through the vent, when gas got real expensive, I couldn't afford $1,000.00 to fill tanks so I began storing with whatever amount of gas I had (usually about 1/3 tank or so). I do stabilize and use Startron all season. I have never had a fuel related problem in the spring or any other time. Sorry if this doesn't line up with some of the well respected people here, but it's my story.
 
Scott Danforth

Scott Danforth

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BTW.....

most fuel companies do not recommend using fuel older than 6 months

from Exxon/Mobile

"In general, gasoline should be used within a month of purchase. When the engine will not be used for an extended period of time, it’s best to drain the fuel tank and then run the engine until it stalls. If you choose to store gasoline and follow proper storage guidelines, the gasoline can be expected to remain of good quality for at least six months."

https://www.exxon.com/en/gasoline-safety-storage

from Sonoco

"Try to avoid putting additives into fuel unless they are needed. And remember, just because one dose of an additive is good, don’t assume a quadruple dose is better. Overdosing can trigger other problems such as particle build-up in the fuel and deposit build-up in the engine."

https://www.sunocoracefuels.com/tech-article/race-fuel-storage

so..... run the tank empty, come spring..... fill with fresh fuel and go boating
 
H

HT32BSX115

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Messages
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QBhoy said:
Why are we talking about aviation fuel?
Click to expand...

Um.....I was talking about (an example of) condensation....... a physical property of water which doesn't matter what fuel type is used, what vehicle it's used in or the altitude it happens at. In an aircraft that condensation on the outside of the fuel tank, happens on the ground.

I mentioned the altitude because of the extreme low temperature which would cold soak the fuel and exaggerate effects of that condensation once the fuel tank was reintroduced to high humidity back on the ground.

The point was about CONDENSATION......doesn't matter where or how it happens except that if the conditions are right.

I think we should try to dispel old wives tales....like storing lead acid batteries on concrete, condensation occurring inside fuel tanks and unleaded gas burning valves etc

But, ok then.
 
Q

QBhoy

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HT32BSX115 said:
Um.....I was talking about (an example of) condensation....... a physical property of water which doesn't matter what fuel type is used, what vehicle it's used in or the altitude it happens at. In an aircraft that condensation on the outside of the fuel tank, happens on the ground.

I mentioned the altitude because of the extreme low temperature which would cold soak the fuel and exaggerate effects of that condensation once the fuel tank was reintroduced to high humidity back on the ground.

The point was about CONDENSATION......doesn't matter where or how it happens except that if the conditions are right.

I think we should try to dispel old wives tales....like storing lead acid batteries on concrete, condensation occurring inside fuel tanks and unleaded gas burning valves etc

But, ok then.
Click to expand...

Utter nonsense. You of all people will know the difference in properties between ethanol blended fuel like petrol...and aviation fuel. Apples and orange. What plane sits for 6 months in such conditions anyway ?
 
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