WT over? Typical! I'm miffed (charging issues)

[natemoore]

MCM 165 engine.

Spent yesterday afternoon and half of today installing my alternator conversion kit in the blazing 95 degree Florida sun. Got 'er up and running, measuring a cool 14.5 volts across the battery terminals like the instructions said I should. Got the dashboard voltmeter working (a tiny magnet had slipped off its little shaft). Got the speedometer registering (vertigris in the brass nipple).

Stuck the boat in Santa Rosa Sound, with the same battery that had started the boat several times this morning AND a brand new battery that charged for a good 8 hours, measuring something like 13.5 volts.

The boat fired right up, ran like a top, and showed 15 volts on the dashboard voltmeter. We motored for a good hour before anchoring and swimming in the sound some.

Went to start the engine...rrrr, rrrrr nothing. Oh crap! Switched to the backup battery (that I thought was fully charged). Rrrr, rrrr.....dead too.

Borrowed a battery from a pontoon boater (24 cell, not a 27 cell). Rrrr, rrr, nothing. Both my dead batteries started his 60 hp outboard no problem.

Well, it's 10:45 p.m. as I type this. The pontoon boater towed me in. Took about an hour and a half. While under tow, I rigged both batteries in parallel using a couple of aluminum poles and my flip-flops as insulators. We came so close to starting the engine a couple of times, but the wife didn't let the engine turn over long enough. So close, but so far!

With the help of a complete stranger and my sister, we got the boat home safely. For some reason, I decided to see if I could flush the engine, and on a whim I tried to start the engine. Rrr--VAROOM! It started in about half a turn!!! And this was AFTER I used up some juice lowering the stern drive. This is typical of my life!!!

Is it possible that I didn't charge these two deep cycle 27 cell batteries long enough and there is nothing wrong with my charging system?

I'm perflexed.

 

[APPALOOSA2]

Re: WTF over? Typical! I'm miffed (charging issues)

Re: WTF over? Typical! I'm miffed (charging issues)

Well I would check the voltage on the batteries before charging them and see what you have.
I think you will see they are fine.

When you say you turned the key and Rrrr...does that mean the engine turned over ? or not ?

Sounds like a starter issue or a hydro locked engine. Does not take much to turn a 165 over.

You said you put the battery in from the pontoon boat and still would not crank over or was it just slow Rrrr don't know what you are saying unless it turned over but very slow.

Pull the sparkplugs out and see if you have water in the cylinder and check your oil for water. If no water then crank engine over without plugs in and see what that does.

 

[P 0 P E Y E]

Re: WT over? Typical! I'm miffed (charging issues)

The problem might not be the charing system or the battery.

It could be a connection in a battery cable, battery switch, ground or other.

It may even be water in a cylinder causing hydraulic lock that after time, went out the exhaust or drained down.

Take a break in check in the morning. Check for water in the oil and plugs.

I like to test the starting system with a load tester and a good pair of jumper cables. Perform a load test at the battery and then at the starter. If the values match, the wiring and battery are OK, if it flunks at the starter, use one wire of the jumper cable to isolate the bad leg.

It could be a bad starter. Next time this failure occurs, tap on the started with the handle of a screw drive while cycling the key rapidly to see if it wakes up the starter.

 

[natemoore]

Re: WT over? Typical! I'm miffed (charging issues)

When I say "rrr", I mean it turned over one or two times and quit.

I've been reading about deep cycle versus starting batteries. I'll check in the morning to see what I have.

Sounds like I'll be sweating again tomorrow. Thanks all.

 

[woosterken]

Re: WT over? Typical! I'm miffed (charging issues)

at the top of the forum under "adults only" Mr. Don S. has a wonderful write up on how to check your starting system.

woosterken

 

[APPALOOSA2]

Re: WT over? Typical! I'm miffed (charging issues)

When you were anchored and swimming was their wave action?

Your flapper valve might be rotted out and gone to stop the water from enter the engine.

That is one thing salt water is good for, rotting out manifolds and exhaust flappers.

 

[Bondo]

Re: WT over? Typical! I'm miffed (charging issues)

Went to start the engine...rrrr, rrrrr nothing. Oh crap! Switched to the backup battery (that I thought was fully charged). Rrrr, rrrr.....dead too.

Borrowed a battery from a pontoon boater (24 cell, not a 27 cell). Rrrr, rrr, nothing. Both my dead batteries started his 60 hp outboard no problem.
I decided to see if I could flush the engine, and on a whim I tried to start the engine. Rrr--VAROOM! It started in about half a turn!!! And this was AFTER I used up some juice lowering the stern drive.

Ayuh,.... My WAGuess is,.. Your wiring is Corroded,....
Remove, Sand, Clean,+ Reinstall All of the Battery's wires,....
Both Ends of Both wires....

 

[natemoore]

Re: WT over? Typical! I'm miffed (charging issues)

When you were anchored and swimming was their wave action?

Your flapper valve might be rotted out and gone to stop the water from enter the engine.

That is one thing salt water is good for, rotting out manifolds and exhaust flappers.

Water was pretty smooth. I read that the "clank clank clank clank" you sometimes hear coming from the stern drive is the flapper valve opening and closing.

 

[natemoore]

Re: WT over? Typical! I'm miffed (charging issues)

Ayuh,.... My WAGuess is,.. Your wiring is Corroded,....
Remove, Sand, Clean,+ Reinstall All of the Battery's wires,....
Both Ends of Both wires....

Wiring looks clean and free of corrosion, but I'll do that anyway.

The battery I charged last night was pretty dead, showing less than 25% charge on the charger's meter. The battery that started the boat last night in the driveway shows 12.88 volts this morning. I left it hooked up all night.

I didn't see any signs of water in the crankcase (brown frothy tan color). I just pulled the dipstick and looked at the oil. Looks normal.

The spark plugs have that nice greyish brown color.

 

[xltier]

Re: WT over? Typical! I'm miffed (charging issues)

Wiring looks clean and free of corrosion, but I'll do that anyway.

The battery I charged last night was pretty dead, showing less than 25% charge on the charger's meter. The battery that started the boat last night in the driveway shows 12.88 volts this morning. I left it hooked up all night.

I didn't see any signs of water in the crankcase (brown frothy tan color). I just pulled the dipstick and looked at the oil. Looks normal.

The spark plugs have that nice greyish brown color.

do a ampere draw test on the starter after warming up the engine.that will take the guess work out.

 

[APPALOOSA2]

Re: WT over? Typical! I'm miffed (charging issues)

Like I said in the first post after all other checks I would be saying its in the starter.

You could take it off and disassemble it and clean it. Use some emery cloth on the armature and the spray it clean. I would probably put a new solenoid on it. Grease the bushings or bearings what ever it has. Pretty simple straight forward job.

 

[a1nowell]

Re: WT over? Typical! I'm miffed (charging issues)

Nate,
My 470 has the same problem when the engine is hot. Here is what I have done to improve the situation.
1) I made up new battery cables with #1 guage wire.
2) I ran a ground wire from top bolt/nut on the starter and grounded it to a bolt hole on the back of the head. (Head is cast iron)
3) I have 2 batterys in parrell connected to a battery switch (Exide marine 1000 CCA starting battery, the second a 850 CCA auto battery)
4) All batteries are also grounded to the head. (Cast Iron)

Starter still luggs a bit when I restart the hot engine but it generally starts. When I put my battery switch on "Both," batteries when the engine is hot it turns the starter as if the engine were cold.

Hope this helps.


I will be installing my new conversion kit Monday. How did you disconnect the old system?

 

[natemoore]

Re: WT over? Typical! I'm miffed (charging issues)

do a ampere draw test on the starter after warming up the engine.that will take the guess work out.

Everyone is leaning toward the starter. Here's what I did after my last post this morning.

I took out all spark plugs and turned over the engine using the same battery that wouldn't turn over the engine while we were out on the water, but turned it over last night in the driveway. Without hesitation, it turned about 400 rpm according to the tach. I replaced the plugs and started the motor. It's all working well now. In fact, I started the motor, ran it for a couple of minutes, and turned it off a total of six times while running the radio, bilge pump, and blower. Each time it starts right up with no noticeable loss of starting power.

I wish I could duplicate whatever conditions caused this problem; then I'd be more confident of the fix. Can I run it at 3500 rpm in my driveway for an hour (as long as it doesn't overheat?)

Ampere draw test? Do I need an expensive amp meter?

 

[natemoore]

Re: WT over? Typical! I'm miffed (charging issues)

I will be installing my new conversion kit Monday. How did you disconnect the old system?

I completely removed the voltage regulator and ran a new section of hose. I left the stator in, but I clipped off the ring terminals and installed crimp caps (or whatever they're called), taped them, and tied them off with nylon wire ties. I completely removed the fat orange lead that connected the VR to the starter solenoid, but I taped of the red lead and tied it off.

If you've got the Breezeworks kit, I had a little trouble getting all the holes to line up. Don't torque anything down until you get all the bolts started.

I bought a dual battery switch with the intention of doing what you did. Where did you find a wiring diagram? I'm not quite sure what to do. I guess I'd have to cut both the monster red battery cable and the smaller red battery cable and put the switch in between, then duplicate the wiring for the other battery.

 

[APPALOOSA2]

Re: WT over? Typical! I'm miffed (charging issues)

I would still take that starter off and go through it. When a starter starts to drag as from heat its because it needs to be fixed. Putting more power to it is not the answer.

 

[maxxman04]

Re: WT over? Typical! I'm miffed (charging issues)

as a long time auto mechanic, i agree. replace the starter. this is a common ailment of a worn starter in the auto world, no reason for difference in marine world.

 

[windsors03cobra]

Re: WT over? Typical! I'm miffed (charging issues)

Possibly overheating/running hot and or ignition timing too far advanced.
If 470's are hard to start when warm/normal operating temperature perhaps a gear reduction mini starter is the answer.

12.88v after standing for 12+ hours sounds like a pretty hot battery.

 

[natemoore]

Re: WT over? Typical! I'm miffed (charging issues)

I ordered a new starter today. You convinced me, especially since it appears to still have the original starter (1987).

Thanks all. I'll let you know in about two weeks how things turn out. Got to go to Universal Studios in a week. Ahhh.... pitchers of sangria at that lovely outdoor restaurant while the kids play at the water park.

 

[a1nowell]

Re: WT over? Typical! I'm miffed (charging issues)

Nate,
Thanks for the info regarding the old charging system.

There should be instructions in your new battery switch but it is a pretty simple install,
1) connect the positive of battery #1 to the #1 post on your switch
2) connect the positive of your #2 battery to the #2 lug on your switch
3) from the output position on the switch run a cable to the hot connection on your starter, the big lug at the starter
4) connect the ground wires from the battery to any grounding bolt on the head

As I mentioned before I also ran a ground wire from the starter to the head.

It has been my experience I get more/longer battery life when I turn the battery switch to the off position when the boat is not in use.

Also, I could nerver get my 470 to duplicate the problem when in the driveway with the muffs on, but take to the lake and run it for a half hour and bingo lug, lug, lug. I also had my starter rebuilt but no help. Since I did all the wiring and grounding it is better but still lugs just not as bad and not at all when I switch to both batteries.

 

[natemoore]

Re: WT over? Typical! I'm miffed (charging issues)

Thanks for the info. I think that battery switch and a new starter will solve the problem....I hope.