Force 50 conks out as thottle increases

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May 4, 2006
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Engine: Force 50<br />Year: 1987<br />Model: 507X7C<br />Serial: 1251<br /><br />Given Variables:<br />1.) the water pump assembly was new<br />2.) engine ran normal @ start of last season in all throttle positions<br />3.) all foot seals were replaced when i got engine<br />4.) engine did not smoke at all<br />5.) premium 50:1 (or greater) mix was used <br /><br />Actions taken:<br />1.) engine was decarbed folling instructions<br /><br />Results of last summer:<br />1.) engine had more power for a month, but smoked a little<br />2.) then engine reverted to "pre decarbing" condition<br />3.) then engine continued to get worse, loosing power<br />4.) by mid season engine would drop to idle from FOT<br />5.) lower plug was being fouled (black, burnt)<br />6.) replacing lower plug fixed prob for 2 weeks<br />7.) by end of season engine wont exceed 20% throt<br />8.) lower plug would be fouled almost instatly and engine ran rough<br />9.) upper plug was always fine<br /><br />Looking at engine now:<br />1.) thermostat housing was leaking salt crystals<br />2.) thermostat was corroded and clogged w/ debris<br />3.) pouring cup of water in t-stat hole yeilds water and oil from lower exhaust port<br /><br /><br />I got this engine/boat last winter. I changed the impeller and it spat out water so i used it. Never did the engine not spit water, but sometimes it would take a few minutes to come out. The symtoms described above came to pass over a 6 week time period. The final result is that the boat "conks out" if i push it it past 20% throttle. I have read every post on this forum about force 50 outboards and have a seloc manual. I am familar with the systems but need an algorythem of things to check/replace.<br /><br />People have told me to change the coils, but i cannot find ones for my model/year that look like the ones i have (not saying i know that is the problem) This is my first boat. ~gratis<br /><br />Chris @ Smith's Marina
 

eurolarva

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Re: Force 50 conks out as thottle increases

Hello Smith and welcome to iboats. Have you done a spark test? When you mentioned the upper plug looks good do you mean it looks like new or has burn wear on it? I would start with a compression test and spark test first. If both are good try going to the fuel system. Lots of people will do the carb rebuild and fuel pump stuff first however if a cylinder is smoked it is just wasted money. When a motor is used in salt water it needs to be flushed with water muffs. If this has not been done corrosion could have taken over. It will be most noticable in the thermostat and in the water pump area.
 
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Re: Force 50 conks out as thottle increases

I have been reading the manual all day and trying to relate it to the engine. The problem i have with the seloc manual is it has no procedures for troubleshooting and there is little seperation when explaining the systems from the various model years, thus why i need help troublshooting. It will be of great help when i know what i need to do.<br /><br />The upper plug has (what i consider) normal burn on it. The light black is on the flat spark tip in the middle and none is on the silver circle around it It sat in my basement all winter, but when i took the upper plug off today it had loose black flakes on it. The lower plug is completly burt black, but wet with fogging oil. Last summer the plug was dry and the whole end was burnt and carbonated (i assume that is the black stuff) <br /><br />I am calling people for a compression tester and will post the results of that and the spark test this weekend. <br /><br />Chris @ Smith's Marina
 
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Re: Force 50 conks out as thottle increases

I did rinse the motor out after use, not everytime. Is there a salt nutralizer i can mix in a bucket and run through so i can start rinsing it everytime this summer? ~gratis
 

RRitt

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Re: Force 50 conks out as thottle increases

I once had a car that did the exact same thing. Turned out the fuel filter was plugged up. At slow speeds enough gas was getting to carb for it to idle and run. But as I pushed the throttle, the gas in float chamber got used up faster than the filter was letting it through ... and the car would conk out. I am wondering if you have something similar going on ... maybe the fuel tank isn't vented and gas can't flow ... maybe the fuel pump isn't capable of pumping ... maybe the filter is plugged up.<br /><br />vinegar is a mild acid that makes quick work of salt residue. However, over the course of time it will also eat away paint. are you sure its salt residue? have you checked your anode lately?<br /><br />my 85hp 2stroke has always "leaked" some oil through the exhaust snout after running.
 
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Re: Force 50 conks out as thottle increases

Thanks ill pickup a filter tommrow and try that after a compression test and spark test. The residue i see inside the thermostat port is yellowish brown. I scraped it and ran a cup of water through the thermostat hole. The water that dripped out splashed on a set of engine valves and the spash marks had turned to rush in only an hour. I am assuming that means there is alot of salt in the engine. <br /><br />It looks like the logical thing to do with the salt is to plug up the exhaust and fill the engine with vinegar and then flush it out. What do you think?<br /><br />Where is the anode on an outboard, isnt it usually the trim fin? I dont have one of those.<br /><br />Chris @ Smith's Marina
 

imported_LakeRunner

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Re: Force 50 conks out as thottle increases

Oxidation occurs quickly in fresh water and even faster in salt. You should always flush your motor out when using it in salt water. I keep my SeaRay in dry storage when not inuse and it is flushed and cleaned prior to storage. If you are seeing rust, that is not good sign. It will rob your engines ability to cool itself and eventually will clog up the cooling system. the anode or zinc is usually located on the lower unit and will be gray. It looks like lead. It is a sacrifical piece of metal that is designed to corrode to keep your engine from corroding. Westmarine sells a salt neutralizer the works great, I use it on my SeaRay when cleaning it for storage.
 
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Re: Force 50 conks out as thottle increases

OK, i did the compression and spark test on my engine, here are the results...<br /><br />Compression:<br />top cylinder = 140psi<br />bttm cylinder = 150psi<br /><br />Spark:<br />both coils = sparks blue at 1/4" away from block and sparks bright blue at 1/8" from block<br /><br />I looked up salt removing treatment on westmarine, do you use the "Salt-Away" brand?<br /><br />Should my next step be to order a fuel pump rebuild kit and new filter? ~gratis<br /><br />Chris @ Smith's Marina
 

RRitt

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Re: Force 50 conks out as thottle increases

you probably don't even have a fuel filter, just a metal screen. If you take out the screw from the black plastic piece where fuel hose goes into the engine (it is labeled "filter") then you can see the screen. Its possible that your problem is simply a clogged up screen.<br /><br />However, having a known good fuel pump diaphram is never a bad idea. The kit is only a few dollars and it is very easy to install. If your motor runs lean then it can damage itself. If in doubt, it is better to err on the side of caution.<br /><br />you still need to verify fuel flow out of tank. There is probably a better way to check tank vent and fitting than what follows. Resident guru Roscoe probably knows best. But lacking that I would simply take the fuel line loose from where it goes into engine and stick it into a gas can. Then I'd pump the bulb like crazy and make sure that I could move more gas than the engine could possibly consume. I'm guessing that if the vent or fitting is plugged up then the flow restriction would become apparent before I could pump a gallon of gas.
 
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Re: Force 50 conks out as thottle increases

Just checked, no fuel filter, there was little sediment, but not enough to stop flow. I will follow the advise i recieved here and install the fuel pump kit and test the fuel supply line and bulb if needed.<br /><br />I should note that the fuel pump screws look like they have been taken out a few time and the gasket around the base looks new.<br /><br />Almost finally, i looked up fuel pump kits and they are only gaskets. This is the link to an average one on ebay, could you confirm this is the right one?<br /><br /> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...d=1,1&item=4636702869&sspagename=STRK:MEWA:IT <br /><br />and finally, i looked on the lower unit and do not see anywhere where there should be an anode. Can you tell me where its supposed to be and what shape it is in.<br /><br />I wont run it under load until i put it back on my boat next weekend. I will post my results.<br /><br />thank you everyone, i dont know as much about engines yet but theres a transient slip for you at my marina if your ever in the Hudson/Passaic/Hackensack River area.<br /><br />thanks again
 
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Re: Force 50 conks out as thottle increases

Yea thats the shape, the picture just looks like gaskets; is that all that is involved in a fuel kit? If so thats cool, ill order the one you linked. Its half the price of the ones on ebay. Ebay is rarely the cheapest anymore, but you got to know where to go, thanks for the link and the help.
 

imported_LakeRunner

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174
Re: Force 50 conks out as thottle increases

Yes, the saltaway is a good product. Check under the cavitation plate for the zinc, I beleive it will be a round disc. Check here for other parts, you will need to know the serial # for the motor; mercruiserparts.com/selectSerailRange.asp?doc_nbr=50+H%2EP%2E+%281987%29
 

imported_LakeRunner

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Re: Force 50 conks out as thottle increases

Correction on the sacraficial anode, it will be oval shaped like a canoe with two bolts. This is the part number: F5H025
 

RRitt

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Re: Force 50 conks out as thottle increases

smith,<br /><br />it should be noted that if your "conking out" is more like turning the key off then there is one other thing that you should check before heading out to the water ... ignition short circuits. When your timing is advanced the entire trigger is rotated and the wires move with it. It is possible that as your trigger assembly rotates that one of the wires is being shorted out.<br /><br />if you conk out due to ignition short, it is hard and fast and the engine is dead until you back off throttle. If you conk out due to fuel loss it is usually a momentary loss until more fuel gets into bowl ... like a very extreme sputterring. With ignition short, engine failure is directly linked to position of throttle control regardless of RPM. With fuel failure, the throttle position is less important than fuel consumption - which is roughly tied to rpm's. Specifically, you go forward on throttle and it dies as soon as the throttle handle hits a certain spot irregardeless of whether you are in the hole or on plane - whether you gun it or ease up to it - then probably an ignition short. On the other hand if the throttle position seems less important than how much power the engine is attempting to deliver then it likely fuel. In this case you could be at idle and gun it. for a second you would have power. then gas gets used up and it dies. you would be able to ease the throttle forward and it dies at a different spot than if you try to gun it.<br /><br />hope that helps some.
 
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Re: Force 50 conks out as thottle increases

Thanks RRitt,<br /><br />If i remember correctly from the fall, i could "gun it" and the RPM's would shoot up for a few seconds and the nose would jump up, then the RPM's would start dropping with some sputtering and i would pull back. I couldnt "gun it" twice back to back, i would have to run slow for a little before it would let me gun it again.<br /><br />Its like you said in your last line, if i gunned it from idle it would rev up and sputter and die; but if i advanced the throttle slowly i could get the boat to plow water at about 20% throttle. I could get to higher RPM's if i moved the trottle slowly to 20% and then gunned it, but then i had to cut the trottle way back to not loose it.<br /><br />So it sounds pretty obvious that i should do the fuel line/bulb/fuel pump and see how far that gets me.<br /><br />I just checked under my caviation plate and i dont see any holes for mounting an anode. The boat did come with these trim fins bolted on to the plate. Is that were the anode is supposed to go and its being covered? <br /><br />PS.- the motor is on a 14' bayliner capri, dont think i mentioned that yet.<br /><br />~gratis<br /><br />Chris @ Smith's Marina
 

RRitt

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Re: Force 50 conks out as thottle increases

you should definitely fix it. when you're out there plowing about at 20% throttle your fuel bowl(s) were probably not full. if the fuel level in your bowl is low, then the venturi doesn't suck up as much gas and you're running lean. Running lean on a 2-stroke with 50:1 oil mix means that the engine is running hot AND not getting enough lubrication. It would be like draining half the water out of the radiator in your car and tooling about town while also two quarts low on oil. Not good for your engine. not good at all.
 
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Re: Force 50 conks out as thottle increases

Oh i will definatly fix it, it only got that bad at the end of the season. I didnt take it out like that except to try and figure out what was wrong. Before it got bad it would drop from FOT and if i lowered the throttle and raised it again it would run normally for awile. <br /><br />I always mind the temperature of my engine, i had that much sense. I was told if you should be able to touch the head for 3-5 seconds without getting burned. I checked this 2-3 times when i was out and it was never too hot that i couldnt leave my hand on it.<br /><br />I also ran a little higher than 50:1. I figured cause it was an old motor it would protect it better, i just put up with a little extra smoke.<br /><br />I am ordering the parts today, but i cant figure out how to find parts on iboats.com. <br /><br />I was searching for "force thermostat" and "force impeller" and "force thermostat gasket" and i would get 5 results for each that all said force with no referance to year or model. (i started another thread for this before)<br /><br />i already have the link for the fuel pump kit. I have a seloc manual, but it dosnt have part numbers, unless im just that stupid and cant find them.<br /><br /><br />Chris @ Smith's Marina
 

RRitt

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Re: Force 50 conks out as thottle increases

fk1073, water pump kit with housing<br />on gear housing page<br /><br />http://www.ishopmarine.com/ishop/jsp/AsplIsmHomeCcat.jsp?reqFor=29&req4Browse=1&lvlCode=3&pCode=M0003375&path=MM~A0000006~M0003369~M0003375&docId=&docName=&isForSupStore=true&cCatF ilter=MM&eCatSupFldr=supplier-050-025-MM<br /><br />you should also be able to find gasket and Tstat.<br />if your pump housing isn't pitted, then you can find impeller alone for around $10<br /> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQitemZ4636297673
 
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