Calling LD, re: an oil question.

achris

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Hi Ludedude,<br /><br />Not sure this is the right forum for this question. Sure JB'll move it if it ain't.<br /><br />I have a question about oil. Surprise, surprise, and I can't think of anyone better to ask.<br /><br />I have a 4.3L Mercruiser and a 6.5L V8 GM diesel (non-turbo, at the moment) and I'm wondering if I can use the same oil for both engines. I am aware of the viscosity issues. I use 15W40 in the Merc and the same in the diesel. The thing I'm more interested in is the ash content. Will a lack of ash (in a 'petrol' oil) cause a problem in the diesel engine, and would the ash (in the 'diesel' oil) cause a problem in the petrol engine? If it won't cause problems, which would be better, 'petrol' oil in the diesel engine or 'diesel' oil in the petrol engine?<br /><br />Also, why is there ash in oil for a diesel engine and not for a petrol?<br /><br />Thanks LD.<br /><br />Chris.................
 

JB

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Re: Calling LD, re: an oil question.

Let's try Non-boating Tech, Chris.<br /><br />Good luck. :)
 

rudeafrican

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Re: Calling LD, re: an oil question.

Just my limited experience but use a diesel oil that has a high API rating for petrol engines as well as Diesel engines ie an oil that has a CH rating for diesel as well as a SL rating for petrol. I run just such an oil in my petrol vehicles, (bikes and cars). The additive packages for C rated oils (Diesel oil) contain extra buffers and detergents to keep the engine clean and free of acids. C rated oils are far better than S oils at holding and dispersing combustion byproducts and other contaminants, and at not becoming acidic. It keeps my petrol engines clean as a whistle. Just my personal experience.<br /><br />Here's some good reading, a bit long winded but not an outright AMSOIL punt...<br /><br />Oil info
 

rwise

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Re: Calling LD, re: an oil question.

I have been running Rotella T 14/40 in everthing for years without any problems. Have not lost an engine with rotella in it. works for me!
 

LubeDude

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Re: Calling LD, re: an oil question.

Hey, I cant add much to what you have already. Just that they do not put ash into the oil, it is a by product of the additives going through the combustion process. Diesel oils have other additives to take care of it though. Never seen it do any damage to a boat engine. They are as clean as a whisle.
 

achris

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Re: Calling LD, re: an oil question.

Thanks guys. Looks like I'll be running the 'diesel' oil in everything. <br /><br />RA, that link is great, thanks.
 

TheOilDoc

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Re: Calling LD, re: an oil question.

Chris, ash content has very little to do with "by-products". I'll try to give you the real answer in layman's terms....<br /><br />Sulfated ash content is directly related to the oil's total base number (TBN), which measures an oil's alkalinity and ability to neutralize acid.<br /><br />As the total base number increases, the sulfated ash content also increases. So I suppose you could say that in general, high-ash oils will have a more robust additive package, and low-ash oils will have a less robust additive package. <br /><br />In diesels, higher levels of ash and a more robust TBN is necessary to offset the harmful effects of acids formed during the burning of high sulphur fuels. And to answer your question, this is exactly why diesels use higher ash containing oil.<br /><br />The problem is that ash is not necessarily a desirable component, especially if you don't need it to offset the effects of the combustion of sulfur-containing diesel fuel. High ash oil can leave more sludge and deposits in the engine, particularily a gasoline engine.<br /><br />Of course using an oil with a ash content that's too low in a diesel could lead to engine failure, generally valve failure.<br /><br />Therefore, I would suggest that if you're going to use a diesel oil in a gasoline engine that you find a diesel oil with the lowest ash content possible. Or better yet, use a gasoline rated oil rated in your gasoline engine, and a diesel rated oil rated in your diesel engine. An oil carrying both ratings would work fine, but may not be the best for both engines. You may want to double check if the 15W-40 is a recommended viscosity for your gasoline Mercruiser. Also know that multi-viscosity oils usually have viscosity improvers in them which break down long before a straight-grade oil. Personally I'd follow the manufacturer's recommendations, probably using a straight-grade marine diesel oil in the diesel engine, and a straight-grade marine gasoline oil in the gas engine.
 

Dunaruna

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Re: Calling LD, re: an oil question.

Low sulfur deisel is currently being introduced downunder, will that affect the type of oil that should be used?<br /><br />Aldo
 

TheOilDoc

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Re: Calling LD, re: an oil question.

Low-sulfur fuels are coming here too. Lower sulfur means that lower ash oils can be used. Lower ash means that less detergents are needed to scrub the engine of deposites.<br /><br />So if you were getting one of these modern low-sulfur fuel diesel engines, it would get along with the low-ash oils (gasoline oils) better.
 

LubeDude

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Re: Calling LD, re: an oil question.

Originally posted by TheOilDoc:<br /> Personally I'd follow the manufacturer's recommendations, probably using a straight-grade marine diesel oil in the diesel engine, and a straight-grade marine gasoline oil in the gas engine.
SURPRISE SURPRISE<br /><br />Achris:<br /><br />Even though TODs advice is sound, Ive torn gas engines down that have been run on diesel oils and never found one that was sludged up, quite the contrary, they were clean as a whistle. Engines were torn down due to water intrusion issues. I would continue doing what you are doing but have no scientific reasons for telling you to do so.
 

TheOilDoc

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Re: Calling LD, re: an oil question.

By achris:<br /><br />Will a lack of ash (in a 'petrol' oil) cause a problem in the diesel engine?
By Lubedude:<br /><br />Ive torn gas engines down that have been run on diesel oils and never found one that was sludged up, quite the contrary, they were clean as a whistle.
But have you seen what low-ash or ashless oils can do to a diesel engine, particularily when they run the higher sulfur marine diesel?<br /><br />Those gasoline engines you tore down were probably run on a low-ash automotive diesel oil. But you don't say what oil.<br /><br />
By Lubedude:<br /><br />SURPRISE SURPRISE<br /><br />I would continue doing what you are doing but have no scientific reasons for telling you to do so.
I have no unscientific reason to recommend you use the same oil for both engines. I certainly do not agree with member Lubedude's comments. Diesel engines get diesel oil. Gasoline engines get gasoline oil. The API has separated them for a reason. "SURPRISE SURPRISE"
 

Laddies

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Re: Calling LD, re: an oil question.

Jeez, Oil Doc I think we would all fall over dead if you ever agreed with LubeDude about anything, inless of course it was him telling the world what a great guy you are.--Bob
 

LubeDude

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Re: Calling LD, re: an oil question.

Originally posted by TheOilDoc:<br />[QB]
By achris:<br /><br /><br />Those gasoline engines you tore down were probably run on a low-ash automotive diesel oil. But you don't say what oil.<br /><br />
Engines were run on actuall diesel oils, Dello 400 14W-40 and Rotella 15W-40. One in a boat, and one in a pickup.<br /><br />I would never run a diesel on an automotive oil. At least we agree on something. :eek:
 

kenimpzoom

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Re: Calling LD, re: an oil question.

I think we can sum up the Lubedude vs oil doc arguments.<br /><br />Oildoc is more conservative, lubedude is willing to think outside the box.<br /><br />You cant go wrong with oil docs advice, but you may do better with lubedudes advice.<br /><br />If you two would just agree to disagree and stop the quoting and pettyness, we could all learn something.<br /><br />Ken
 

achris

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Re: Calling LD, re: an oil question.

Thanks guys, now I'm all confused again......<br /><br />Ken. Words of wisdom, yet again.<br /><br />Chris...........
 

LubeDude

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Re: Calling LD, re: an oil question.

Originally posted by KenImpZoom:<br /> <br />stop the quoting and pettyness, Ken
I thought we did that, well pretty much.<br /><br />Im trying, really hard, Honest, give me a break. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 

Peter J Fraser

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Re: Calling LD, re: an oil question.

Achris<br />I have similar experience to LD on this.<br />I have used 15w40 Diesel Oil in everything for about 20 years.<br />I have not had a failure in any engine diesel or gasoline but my gas engines are surely clean inside.<br />I have used product from Amsoil, BP, Ampol and more recently Total.<br />Wife's current car is a '93 80 series twin turbo Supra (no3 in a long line of Supra's) and its on Total as well. It was changed to diesel oil about 2/3rds of its life.<br />It is getting cleaner inside with each service.<br />I know its against the "rules" but it is working for me and I dont have to carry different oils on hand for each application.<br /><br />Regards,<br /><br />Peter
 

achris

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Re: Calling LD, re: an oil question.

Thanks for all the info and input guy.<br /><br />The most helpful was Rudeafrican with the link. I printed it out and spent a few nights in bed reading it. <br /><br />Based on that info, and basically the same advice from everybody else, I will run the 15W-40 diesel oil in everything.<br /><br />Thanks again.<br /><br />Chris..............
 

LubeDude

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Re: Calling LD, re: an oil question.

The only way I would suggest something differently would be if you were a "WIDE OPEN THROTLE" Kind of a guy with your boat. If you run your boat at WOT everywhere you go, (Which rarely is the case). I would recomend changing it at about 50 hours of use or twice a year. If you are a normal boater, you will be fine with the recommended 100Hr. interval.
 

TheOilDoc

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Re: Calling LD, re: an oil question.

Delo 400 15W-40 and Shell Rotella 15W-40 will be the dual rated (gas/diesel) lower-ash oils that I mentioned. They are designed for automotive diesel engines that run on lower sulfur diesel fuels (highway diesel). Their lower ash content makes them suitable for automotive gasoline engines.<br /><br />Unfortunately neither Delo nor Shell recommends those oils for marine applications, and in fact both manufacturers make a marine diesel oil specific to marine diesel applications. Those oils are designed for diesel engines that run on the higher sulfur marine diesel fuels (off highway diesel). They will not carry the gasoline rating.<br /><br />The best oil for a marine diesel, which is apt to run on higher sulfur marine diesel fuel, is marine quality diesel oil. Usually in a straight grade recommended by the manufacturer.<br /><br />The best oil for a marine gasoline engine will be a marine grade gasoline oil. Usually in the grade recommended by the manufacturer.<br /><br />If someone wanted to compromise and use an automotive dual rated diesel oil, of wrong viscosity, for both engines, then that is their choice. But realize that the manufacturers of gasoline engines do not recommend API diesel oils for a reason. And diesel engine manufacturers do not recommend API gasoline oils for a reason. A true marine grade diesel oil will have a high ash content, something that is not desirable in a marine gasoline engine. And the low ash content in gasoline oils can do valvetrain damage in a diesel.<br /><br />Thinking outside the box isn't of issue here. Arguing and pettiness is a moot point, regarless of the "SURPRISE SURPRISE" coments. You either understand ash content, and its relation to sulfur content, TBN integrity, and what it can do to diesel and gasoline engines, or you don't.
 
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