water under new deck

[Mr Hands]

Perhaps I went about this ass backwards. Of course I did not know about this site when I started my restore of a '70 Alumacraft fiberglass hull that my dad gave me. I stripped out the rotten styrofoam blocks, stringers & deck. I then replaced the stringers with epoxy saturated wood reinforded with fiberglass & poured in new foam laden with 2 liter pop bottles. The 20 gal. gas tank is in the bow on a seperate fiberglass shelf that was a bit higher than the deck & seemed quite sound so I did not mess with it. After putting in a new epoxy soaked 3/4 pywood deck covered with a layer of mat & glass, I covered it all with another layer of epoxy to make sure it was well sealed. Or so I thought.
When I got to starting on the hull I noticed some water leaking out of a crack along a cline. I then drilled a fel holes along the keel and water was dripping for days. I ended up patching the holes with Marine Tex and laying up a few layers of glass mat to cover some previous damage at the keel near the bow.
I am working front to back, sanding the bad layers of paint off to the gelcoat, and about to tackle the cline crack.

BTW, what is the best toll for sanding thru the paint? The 4 & 7" angle grinders are way too agressive and the orbital is just not cutting it.

I had sealed in the bidge pump trough and figured I had better drill a hole in the front to make sure any water that made it into the bottom could drain out and had more water draining out of the new hole!
Rain water must have gotten in through the two vents at the bow - I have sealed them off for now. I then drilled a hole under the bow light fixture and poured in a few cups of epoxy hoping like hell this will seal off the point of entry, and had some epoxy run out down the center of the deck.
The only other thing I can think of is pouring more epoxy down the two vent hole openings on the bow and hope they seal off any other openings near the sides.

Any other advice you guys could offer me before I test my homeowners insurance policy would be grealy appreciated!
[attachment=img=boat vent]

 

[oncebitten]

Re: water under new deck

Hmm... having trouble picturing these vents, do you have pictures? Also, are you using polyester resins or epoxy resins?

 

[bjcsc]

Re: water under new deck

Regarding sanding the paint: try some flap disks on your small angle grinder. I know you can get 60, 80, an 120 grit. Works great and it's fast. Good luck on the rest.

 

[Mr Hands]

Re: water under new deck

Hey Dave:
its all epoxy resin.
The vents don't seem to have much purpose. They connect to clothes dryer exhaust tubes that just hang there a couple of feet down. I'm pretty sure there was never a clothes dryer on board.

try this link for pics:
http://home.comcast.net/~vytasu/index.html

 

[oncebitten]

Re: water under new deck

Okay, I see now. I think those are called Dorade style vents. I may be wrong about that. So, you have water on the sole, but not under the sole? Or is that you have a crack somewhere letting water in under the sole and you're seeing it at cracks in the chine and at the keel?

In any case, if you're going to be repainting the boat, did you consider pulling the vents altogether? You could then screw a backing plate on the underside wrapped in plastic, then mix up some epoxy/woodflour or epoxy/microballon/silica/strand, or whatever your favorite mix is, to fill just the width of the top deck. Then you can cover that with a layer of 4 oz. glass and fair it into the hull with a product like QuickFair.

Usually those vents are there for a reason. Did you have a cuddy cabin on this boat? I can't see what's under that deck from any of the angles I see online.

Also, I'm with... darn, I can't see his name now, the guy up a couple posts. I've got a Mikita variable speed sanding/grinding wheel drill type thing, $30.00. You put a 5" or 7" disk on this bad boy and it just rips stuff down supper fast with a little less agressiveness than an angle grinder.

 

[Mr Hands]

Re: water under new deck

Oncebitten:
The water is getting in under the new deck and weeping from the crack at the chine and coming out through a drain hole I just drilled in the front of the sump.

There is no cabin just a gas tank at the bow and the vents are positioned just forward of the tank. This area is not sealed off so I see no practical use for the vents. I was not in any hurry to paint the top yet, I just wanted to get it seaworthy. With all the moisture, I guess I'll wait till spring to paint the bottom, since I should probably wait till the cline dries out a bit.
I might as well drill another few holes into the bottom to help it drain from the lowest point.

 

[bjcsc]

Re: water under new deck

There is no cabin just a gas tank at the bow and the vents are positioned just forward of the tank. This area is not sealed off so I see no practical use for the vents.

OK, now think about those two statements...

Here's a hint:

 

[oncebitten]

Re: water under new deck

d I see what you're saying, that would be unfortunate.

However, I think Mr. Hands is saying that it's NOT sealed off, so why vent it if the front is completely open. That makes sense to me, if you have a tank with integrity, why bother if you get full venting in the compartment already.

On terminology, I think we're confusing each other. And I'm just trying to get it so we all understand each other, I'm not trying to be a pompous (sp?) ass, even though it's going to sound that way...

The deck is on top of the style line, it caps the gunwales, it's that part that the vents stick up through. The sole is the part that you stand on, if there is a floor raised above the bottom of the hull on stringers, that's the sole. The chine is where the side and the bottom of the hull meet. The keel is the bottom centerline of the boat running from bow to stern.

So I think you're saying that the water came in through the deck vents and the bow light and somehow ran down and got under the sole, and now you can see it draining through a crack in the chine and through a hole drilled forward of the motorwell bilge area.

My question is, if the sole is taped all the way around with fiberglass tape and epoxy resins, how did the water get under the sole? That's what I would want to know. Sometimes, I saw this on my buddy's boat, keels are hollow, because they're often added after the boat is removed from the mold, and there could be water just in there. That doesn't explain the water coming from the chine. However, if the boat has add-on chine molding that acts as a spray rail, then that too is possible hollow and is just waterlogged on its own.

One thing I did on my boat, was to drill small drain holes from every chamber under the sole through all the stringers, into the center chamber where everything could drain to the motor well for easy removal, just in case.

 

[Solittle]

Re: water under new deck

Pictures sure would help.

 

[Mr Hands]

Re: water under new deck

OK, water got under the sole. Pardon my poor terminology.
I replaced the sole except for the small area at the bow that the gas tank sits on because it appeared structurally sound.
All I can figure is there is a crack or hole in front of or underneath the gas tank, thats why I tried to pour epoxy into that area in hope that it would find its way to fill the hole.
I will pull the vent fittings & tubes to see if I can find the problem. I did not want to pull the tank, but I may have to after all.

http://home.comcast.net/~vytasu/

 

[oncebitten]

Re: water under new deck

It sounds like you're on the right track. I'd remove the tank to see if that's the real problem area. If the sole in that area seems structurally sound, you might just sand down a few inches all around and then retape all around the edges with some 4" woven and epoxy. That should seal it up nicely.

I know it can be very discouraging after you just put so much work into it, but if you love the boat, it's worth figuring out where the problem is and fixing it.

Is it possible that those vents were replaced at some point and the work wasn't done properly? I mean if they're original to the hull and you want to keep them, maybe it's a matter of repair or replacement not elimination.

 

[Mr Hands]

Re: water under new sole

Re: water under new sole

Thanks, Dave, I appreciate the encouragement.
Of couse you are right, if I'm going to ever complete this project, I may as well do it correctly.

Actually its a love/hate relationship at this point and I've come to terms with the fact it won't see the water this season. I don't know if I should name it "Aaaargh!" or "Frustration".

So, what is your advice on repairing the cline after I've ground out the crack? It's at least 4 feet long and looking at long ways, there is a bow to it.
What best to fill it with?
I'm not too confident that I could lay in a piece of mat over it - its only an inch tall & the 90 deggree corner would be a bear.

 

[oncebitten]

Re: water under new deck

Well, first let me say, pictures definately help. I think that bottom picture on your site might be the chine crack, but I can't really tell.

I hesitate to offer any further advice without seeing the chine clearly. Generic advice. Apply structural glass biaxial 12 oz. to rounded edges, not 90 degree edges, like you said, then you can reshape the edge with thickened epoxy in the consistency of thick peanut butter. Usually, a mixture of microballons and silica gives good results. As long as it won't sag, you can use tools to shape the chine at a 90 after it is structurally sound. I hope this makes sense.

 

[Mr Hands]

Re: water under new deck

Thanks again Dave!
a couple of new pics:
home.comcast.net/~vytasu/

 

[Plainsman]

Re: water under new deck

I have the same type of vents on my 78 glastron, but they are on the rear of the boat and the hoses go to the bilge area. I just figured it was a way to make sure that area dried out.

 

[oncebitten]

Re: water under new deck

Alright, you're going to hate me for this advice, but it's the way I would go. If the boat means a lot to you, and you really want to do it right, then that's different from making it useable and getting a couple good seasons out of it and then moving on. Advice on both motivations follows.

To keep it and keep it in great shape, I'd start by ripping the floor up again and attacking all suspect leak sites from both sides- inside and out. The way I would patch a crack or a hole is to grind out around the area, as you've done. Then, screw a wood backing plate with plastic wrapped around it on one side or the other- inside or out. Next, fill from the opposite side with epoxy and your favorite thixotropic additive- like microballon/silica mix or just silica, or whatever you like. Then remove the backing plate after cure and sand and cover the area on both sides with a layer of fiberglass and epoxy. Finally, fair the area into the hull. Use biaxial fiberglass on the hull bottom where the forces are greatest, and a 4 oz or 6oz woven on areas that are not structural like the sides or the decks. That's what I would do if I were going to restore the boat to near showroom beauty. If this were my motivation, I would also sand it down to bare fiberglass/risin and repaint the whole thing. Best way to do that is by flipping it over, and I'd do that while I had the sole out and the decks off.

To get some life out of it, I would simply grind it out, mix up a batch of epoxy thickened with wood flour or whatever you like and fill the area from the one side- in this case the outside. Then glass over it with biax on the bottom or woven on the topsides. This will save you having to take up the sole again.

Some tips. You can ball up fiberglass cloth and shove it in areas where there are huge holes. It's not easy, and it aint pretty but it can be done. Another, better, but more compicated way to do it is to wet out a piece of fiberglass a bit bigger than your hole on your workbench. Make sure you put plastic down, or it will become part of your workbench. After it cures, cut it until it's about 1/4 - 1/2" larger than the hole all around and in the same shape as the hole. Drill a screw through the center of it. Slather a bit of thickened epoxy around the edges. Stick it in the hole and use the screw to apply pull pressure to get it positioned where you want it. Then, let it cure in place, and now you have a backer plate (or skin) for the filling work.

You have to make the judgement of whether or not the boat is worth the extra work to make it last for thirty more years, or just ten. Sorry if this seems like I'm harshing your buzz, I'm not trying to. That's just my honest assessment of what I would do. Many others may have different reasoning and different advice.

 

[Mr Hands]

Re: water under new deck

OK, so my original assesment was correct...

I could cut the sole out all the way around, and conceivably drill a hole to remove every screw. Chances are, I'l try to fix the crack from the outside, and do my best to overcompensate.
Maybe I can grind the heck out of cline and come up with a simple form for the 90 so I can at least get a good layer or two of biaxial over it.

If I every attempt another restore, at least I'll will have learned how not to do it.
Thanks again for your valuable input!

 

[oncebitten]

Re: water under new deck

Hmm... yeah, I think after re-reading your original post, that would be my assessment too. But all is not lost. Someone may have some insights or experience or advice that I don't. There could be someone out there who knows just the right thing. Hang in there, I'd give it another week to see if anyone has something constructive to add.

This is an excellent site, but you may want to check out some boat building sites, which are specifically targeted at amatuer builders like Glen-L and www.bateau2.com for information about how new construction goes together. It can give you some insights into how to proceed. Other great sites include www.continouswave.com (the Boston Whaler owners site) and one of my favorites http://www.bertram31.com/ (Bertram 31) which, if you dig deep on that site, also has some excellent how-to files and repair articles. Also, check out amateurboatbuilding.com

 

[Mr Hands]

Re: water under new deck

Good resouces - thanks again!

 

[oncebitten]

Re: water under new deck

If we were neighbors, I'd be tearing into it with you. d Best of luck with it, and I hope you get some more assitance here.