pics and progress on engine rebuild

Fishermark

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Well, since I posted a few questions on this engine rebuild, thought I would post a few pictures of the progress made so far. (This is an early 70's vintage Mercruiser 165 - or Chevy 250, take your pick! ;) )

It was pretty well rusted up and seized when we bought the boat. Here's a "before" showing the engine:
DSCF5324.jpg


Here's an "after" - at least to this point:
DSCF5399.jpg



A close up of the old head. Not a lot of metal left!

DSCF5373.jpg



The new head. Quite a bit more metal to work with! :)

DSCF5401.jpg


Work done so far:
-Had cylinders honed (didn't need boring)
-New main and rod bearings, new rings, new oil pump. The oil pan was in good shape, surprisingly, but needed to order a new timing cover. As soon as it arrives I can finish things up.

Oh yeah - new manifold and riser as well. Hope to get back on the water by New Year's Day!
 

Don S

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Re: pics and progress on engine rebuild

Lookin Good!
I would say that head is rusted away in the next to bottom picture. it sure must have had a lot of salt water on it for a lot of years.
 

MikDee

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Re: pics and progress on engine rebuild

Lookin Good! Can I suggest you get a new "Drive coupling", to deal with the fresh repower, and make sure you check the alignment with the outdrive (this was my downfall a few months after my rebuild, and you'd need to remove the engine again to fix it. :eek:)
 

Fishermark

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Re: pics and progress on engine rebuild

Thanks - we will definitely check the coupler, and I already have the alignment tool ready to use! We will be ordering new rear mounting bushings as well. We have had the starter and alternator checked out by a local shop - with the alternator being rebuilt. At least the starter was in good shape! :D

(And yes, before someone asks - they are all marine grade)

The thing I like about this engine is the ease of access to everything.
 

Bondo

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Re: pics and progress on engine rebuild

Ayuh,........

Lookin' Good Mark,.......... Lookin' Great actually...........;)
 

Gary H NC

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Re: pics and progress on engine rebuild

Looks great! She should run like a sewing machine..;)
 

Don S

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Re: pics and progress on engine rebuild

You know Gary, after he gets done with that engine, he want to head up your way to build engines for you guys ;)
 

achris

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Re: pics and progress on engine rebuild

Engine looks great fishermark. One of the things that the 165 was notorious for was loose wrist pins. Did you check them? They don't cause any major problems apart from a heavy knock as the pistons heat up. If the engine is nice and quite on start-up and the noise comes in after a few minutes, that's the problem. I don't think I have listened to a 165 that doesn't have noisy wrist pins, unless it had new pistons :D

Also, did you reface the rockers? If you don't they tend to slide off the valves and damage their posts. Had it happen to me... Not nice....

Good luck, and I look forward to seeing the "engine in the boat" photos.

Chris..........
 

Gary H NC

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Re: pics and progress on engine rebuild

You know Gary, after he gets done with that engine, he want to head up your way to build engines for you guys ;)

That would be fine with me! I'm sure we could find him plenty to work on.:D
 

starsnstripers

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Re: pics and progress on engine rebuild

Nice job fishermark, hope the 292 i do next season is as nice. Might have to contract you, do you like Maine? lol Looking forward to finished pics before and after install. Have a good holiday.
 

Lakester

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Re: pics and progress on engine rebuild

hello,

looks great! i am an ol chevy six enthusiast from way back. :) used to design custom kits for them :D even write magazine articles on the inline six, history, performance and mods, etc. [blush]

achris sed:

"Also, did you reface the rockers? If you don't they tend to slide off the valves and damage their posts. Had it happen to me... Not nice...."

good tip, but actually... you dont have to reface them all as a rule... but u should inspect each one for a U-shaped marring that the valve tip creates on rocker tip after many miles of use. well, hrs in this case. or the wear pattern can be a cupped area favoring one side. in any case. i would not use any rocker with any valve stem tip marring. :eek:

for me personally, i would also not reface them. reason is because if the rocker tip is that worn, usually so is the rocker to ball base in middle of the rocker where it tips back n forth as the cam pushes on it.

these are the same rockers as any chevy dealer sells. so if u havent, replace any marred. if it were me, i would toss old one and replace all 12 rockers.and... all new rocker balls.

also, if it were mine i would only use brass components in ignition system: cap n rotor. i would not use the old marine plug wires, as i would without a doubt run the Magnecore KV8.5s... racing wires that r super efficient and... i would also run the MSD electronic coil. and a GM plug. i would also run the MSD 6A ignition module. and a tach. if dist is HEI u can get an updated coil from MSD

i run a 250 chevy six in my 83 van. it has ported heads, back cut valves, rv cam, KV 8.5 wires, MSD HEI, tach, etc. runs super nice! starts within about 1/4 revolution off starter. my other 250 is a solid lifter 300 hp six with windage screen, and crankshaft scraper. studs hold head on. and piston comes above the deck ".035 [past gasket] for an 11:1 CR! sweet sounding, guys have mistaken it for a V8. it does has 'the sound!" runs a 600 holley 4-bbl and pulls real...nice. i designed and built the windage screen, crank scraper, and the 4 bbl set up.

and another thing... i would get some cam lube and put some under rocker tips, and on valve stem for start up. also be sure to put some on the rocker ball and the ball seat. and the push rod tip area, too. then pour some engine oil on each valve rocker set up prior to start. then put on valve cover. i would also pre-oil the entire engine before i cranked it one revolution. and i would be sure to use a new fuel pump. ac-delco would serve me fine. even if with water sep too. and i would have the timing spot on. perfectly timed. ez to do. set it all off of #1 cyl and have crank set a BTC point, then set distributor. and after break in oil out, then use light to fine tune timing.

as if this wasnt enuff to think about... if it was mine... i would have plastiguaged the the new rod and main bearings to crank. the outside evelope is .0025 max, or it may be .0035 max on the big side [loose]. but while u have added new bearings u didnt mention u reground the crank. so i would want to tighten the rods n mains up to about .0015 - .002" and that will give up both a quiet engine, and a long rod life. if rods at .0035 now, u will have talking rods soon.

oic, u still have pan off, so best bet is to ck these running clearances. and DOUBLE. then triple check your timing gear alignment pin marks to align properly. be sure u put oil into the oil pump, too. if u didn't rotate the long block there, and un bolt the oil pump cover and pour in some oil. it will prime it. it needs to be primed prior to start up or u can and prob will score some bearings... [ouch!]

also: on all of my inlines i crank them first with no ignition. this lets oil pump ensure all bearings wet with oil. 6-10 revs. 2-3 revs at a time. crank, stop, crank, stop, crank, stop. igniton ON, then crank it to fire. then i add fire. the inline 6 cranks is LONG. and they will be dry and running before oil gets there. this will kiss the metal parts of bearing and crank journal and a premature wearing will take place... ie short rod life. [been there done that!!]

the engine should be set up to go right to 2000 rpms within first revolution or two. if not u can eat cam lobes. none of the err, err, err, wont start... err err... wont start... heck u cant tow a boat. lol ~ run engine at 2000-2500 for first 30 mins or so, so as the heat soak it all; on 1st start up unless cam is OE. and i would also install cam lifter dry. this way u can set each valve and get it to sit in the middle of the piddle valve travel. then when u start it up all valves will be perfectly adjusted. i never adjust hydraulic valves after first fire up... they are always adjusted dry... and they run perfectly. :D otherwise TOO messy.

be sure u have cam lube on cam lobes, fuel pump rod lobes and end, and... bottoms of lifters. u cant mix hydraulic lifters on use cam lobes. so if old cam u have to have same lifters in each boss... or new ones. they will eat the lobe otherwise... almost everytime. :eek:

then drain ur break in oil, change oil filter and put in fresh oil. u r set then to head to ramp.

well, u may have already done this stuff or most of it. if u need any help, u can contact me. hope she runs like she looks.

these are things to consider for ur marine 6. and all bolts on. good tech, too.

regards,

lakester :cool:
 
D

DJ

Guest
Re: pics and progress on engine rebuild

Just curious. Did they make you eat the core charge on that old head?

Great tips, above.

How is the exhaust manifiold? I wouldn't risk using the old one. The riser either.

Looks good. I too like the simplicity of those old beasts.
 

Fishermark

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Re: pics and progress on engine rebuild

Thanks to all for the tips. I did most of the above -- used engine assembly lube everywhere -- the crank, (mains and rods) - the cam - the lifters - the rocker arms and ball.

Regarding the rockers - they didn't have any discernible wear at the valve contact area, so I think I'm alright there.

Regarding the wrist pins. I'm not sure what to say! They seemed fine - the pistons moved back and forth freely, but with no play that I felt. Of course for that, the only tool I used was my hands. ;)

I reused the old cam and lifters. The lobes on the cam looked like they had little if any wear. The lifters I can change out in the boat easily if any are making noise. But I suspect that this engine did not have many working hours on it - just a lot of sitting around over the years.

I did plastigauge the rods and mains. They were a little more loose than I would have preferred, (or is that "looser"? :confused: :D) The clearance range that I was able to find suggested 0.0010 to 0.0026 for the rods, and about the same for the mains - except the last cap with the main seal - it suggested 0.0016 to 0.0035. I don't have the actual numbers in front of me, but they came in around the 0.0020 range.

Surprisingly enough they didn't charge me a core charge. I explained that the head would not be rebuildable and they said they understood it was from a boat and would accept it in whatever condition I brought it to them, as long as it was complete. It cost $275 for a complete recondioned head. I felt that was a pretty good deal.

According to the UPS tracking information, (isn't the internet a wonderful thing?), my timing cover is due to come in on Christmas Eve. This will make a great present for Dad. (He's 74 years old and fishes on average 2 - 3 times a week).
 

achris

More fish than mountain goat
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Re: pics and progress on engine rebuild

......

Regarding the wrist pins. I'm not sure what to say! They seemed fine - the pistons moved back and forth freely, but with no play that I felt. Of course for that, the only tool I used was my hands. ;)

.....


They should have felt a little tight. The problem is when they heat up, being an aluminium piston and steel pin they expand at different rates. The hole in the piston gets larger than the pin expands, hence any noise that develops will be heard after a few minutes of running. If they are noisy, don't fret about it... Most of those 165s have noisy pins :D and they still last for years....


This will make a great present for Dad. (He's 74 years old and fishes on average 2 - 3 times a week).
Lucky bugger!!!:D:D:D

Chris..........
 

Lakester

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Messages
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Re: pics and progress on engine rebuild

fm~

sounds like u did both ur homework... and a good job in its assembly. just be sure u did not mix up the lifters. once an engine comes to life, lifters become "used" lifters since they begin to carve a pattern on the lifter's convex end, as well as on the cam lobe. when u mix used ones, u cut into each's case hardening and therein lies the problem. if u did mix them up, i would not run them!! :( best to simply, put in new ones. u can run new ones on a used cam, but u can't run used lifters on a used cam, unless they are in the same, original lifter bore.

u can tighten up those loose rods n mains with brass shim stock. it is avail at most tool supply houses. it cuts like paper with sissors or aviation tin snips. cut it to just undersize the bearing's demensions. clean rod end with laquer thinner, blow dry, place shim in there, then put in the bearing insert. when i do it, i then dress the mating surface of the rod end, as to dress out any of the bearing if it sits a tweak high. even if it is only .001". this should be done so as to allow the insert to assume it's designed in... crush. so it will be round. it is time consuming, but also fun. 'cause with it u can beat the system!! :D do 1/2, then try cap... .003" shim stock will usually snug the bearing to journal running clearance into the .0015" - .002 range. and that is read nice!! no doubt ur engine will run fine if u dont, but since the marine engine is unde load all the time, it will take its toll on the bearings thru a shortened service life. especially the loose rods. to me... .0035 is a mite too loose. especially, since it can be fixed... given an engine on the stand and the pan not on it... yet. :) i would predict a knock within 50 hrs or less for an L6 with that loose of a rod, that is not baby'd on start ups. :cool:

when i do an engine this way, i ck it with plastiguage, then if i like that reading, i then oil the insert's face and the crank journal and assemble. then i slide the rod end assembly back and forth on the crank journal. once up, then back. it must slide effortlessly. quiet, and effortlessly. in the case when in doubt, where the plasticguage looked good, but the rod felt tight, i err to the side of looseness. so that means go back in and remove a brass shim. i usually take it off the rod end vs. the cap end.

shim stock is standard fare in tool n die work. to adjust this or that a few "thous...". to me, a rod and crank journal is similar to tool n die construction... precision metal parts.

when u fire it up, maybe u can do a uTube and we can all listen to ur swell engine work. :)

regards,

lakester :cool:
 

Fishermark

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Re: pics and progress on engine rebuild

Thanks Lakester - yep, I made sure the lifters went back into the same hole - same with rockers, push rods, etc. The rod clearances all came in around 0.002 - not 0.0035. The .0035 figure was the upper limit recommendation for the rear main bearing cap, and even it came in around .002, so I think I'm okay on the clearances. The brass shim stock sounds interesting, but not something I need to do. (Thankfully!)

That reminds me of the first engine I ever rebuilt. I own a 1956 Chevy and it originally had a 235 straight six. I rebuilt it after a few years of ownership and had the crank turned and new bearings. After installing the crank, it wouldn't even turn!! Come to find out that particular engine came designed with shims that you added or subtracted under the main bearing caps to get the proper clearance. I'd never heard of that before - but sure enough, the parts store sold the shims and after getting the right shims on there it went on to work great! (I still have that car - you can see some pics on my web page . (Mods - I don't know if I'm allowed to post my web page - if that's a problem, let me know and I will certainly remove it).
 
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Don S

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Re: pics and progress on engine rebuild

Beautiful car Mark. When I was in the Air Force back in 65 I built a 56 on a 55 frame. All black without a dent or scratch, red interior, bucket seats, 327 w/dual quads, 4 speed...... huh, huh ahh ahh ( sound Tim the Tool Man makes)
 

Fishermark

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Re: pics and progress on engine rebuild

Black huh? The body must have been perfect - black shows every flaw!
 

1970 Chieftain V

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Re: pics and progress on engine rebuild

I hope it is not too personal to ask but what kind of money did you put into redoing the engine? I have a 165 that has 1400 hours on it I am sure I may have to rebuild it at some point but right now it is purring along nicely.

engineframing2.jpg


Jason
 

starsnstripers

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Re: pics and progress on engine rebuild

Nice car fisher, I have a 63 dodge 880,361ci waiting for weather/paint. hope this post dont get moved to old cars. lol :p haha anyway nice set up fisher. keep up the good work fisher.
 
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