Interesting distributor dilemma!***Newport Dave***

WizeOne

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The last several times out, with my boat, the engine began to act up right to the point of dieing and not restarting. It would not even completely turn over on restart trys. It was obvious there was an ignition breakdown so amidst tossing waves, I pulled the engine cover, removed the distrib cap and found a black build up on the rotor strap, under the center spring loaded coil terminal contact.

Scraping of the black residue, the motor would fire right up. Not knowing exactly what was going on, I ordered a new cap and rotor. First off I noticed that the Napa rotor was about .020 taller than my previously used Pertronix supplied rotor. That got me to looking closer.

I looked closely at the cap and there was a faint black track around the inside sidewall, a considerable distance below the bottom of the cylinder contact studs. I cut a hole in the top of the old cap, between the #8 cylinder tower and the primary coil wire tower. This is what I observed and subsequently measured.

Rotor-CapDrawing-1.jpg


No wonder I was having a problem. Not only was the top of the rotor backstrap .092 below the bottom tip of the cylinder terminal studs, the center contact was probably not making firm contact with the rotor. This of course would cause arcing which would account for the black deposits on the rotor strap.

I have temporarily made changes that will probably work, but they are still not right. The tip of the rotor should be riding right up in the middle of the flattened off cylinder terminal.

I just cannot figure out what the deal is. This is an old Prestolite mechanical advance marine distrib. I used it for years and only recently installed the pertronix unit. But that would have absolutely nothing to do with the dizzy shaft height and subsequently the rotor height.

I just post this for general interest as I really doubt anyone has a solution. I also doubt that many people have done measurements or cut holes in the top of their caps to see where their rotors are riding.

The only possibility I can think of is that the Napa Marine caps and/or rotors are not of the proper dimensions.
 

oops!

Supreme Mariner
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Oct 18, 2007
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12,932
Re: Interesting distributor dilemma!

Re: Interesting distributor dilemma!

hi wize...

i just had a simelar problem in my b-liner,

don's and bond-o had me running perfectly in just a few posts.

my problem....besides a worn cap and rotor....was actually in the points....once the cap and rotor were replaced with the correct ones....we had to get the correct points and re-install them (long story on the points) but thats where my problem was.....also the plate in the dist can come loose causing a short.....

your problem may not be the same....but a place to look.....and ill bet ya a beer....our guys here can tell ya exactally whats happening to yours ! ;)

cheers bud
oops
 

Tail_Gunner

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Re: Interesting distributor dilemma!

Re: Interesting distributor dilemma!

The last several times out, with my boat, the engine began to act up right to the point of dieing and not restarting. It would not even completely turn over on restart trys. It was obvious there was an ignition breakdown so amidst tossing waves, I pulled the engine cover, removed the distrib cap and found a black build up on the rotor strap, under the center spring loaded coil terminal contact.

Scraping of the black residue, the motor would fire right up. Not knowing exactly what was going on, I ordered a new cap and rotor. First off I noticed that the Napa rotor was about .020 taller than my previously used Pertronix supplied rotor. That got me to looking closer.

I looked closely at the cap and there was a faint black track around the inside sidewall, a considerable distance below the bottom of the cylinder contact studs. I cut a hole in the top of the old cap, between the #8 cylinder tower and the primary coil wire tower. This is what I observed and subsequently measured.

Rotor-CapDrawing-1.jpg


No wonder I was having a problem. Not only was the top of the rotor backstrap .092 below the bottom tip of the cylinder terminal studs, the center contact was probably not making firm contact with the rotor. This of course would cause arcing which would account for the black deposits on the rotor strap.

I have temporarily made changes that will probably work, but they are still not right. The tip of the rotor should be riding right up in the middle of the flattened off cylinder terminal.

I just cannot figure out what the deal is. This is an old Prestolite mechanical advance marine distrib. I used it for years and only recently installed the pertronix unit. But that would have absolutely nothing to do with the dizzy shaft height and subsequently the rotor height.

I just post this for general interest as I really doubt anyone has a solution. I also doubt that many people have done measurements or cut holes in the top of their caps to see where their rotors are riding.

The only possibility I can think of is that the Napa Marine caps and/or rotors are not of the proper dimensions.


I guess that could only happen on a old barge with a Ford motor......:D

:D:D:D m sorry it almost makes me hurt a bit ...i see this visual of you on that rough chop eyeballing that rotor and cap....i had a recent experience where i blew up a MPI alarm... my head down in the bilge finding peices everyhwere and heavy wave's slamming in from every direction... the air turned blue... Just dont buy chinese part's next time..;)

Umm that old barge in racing form yet..
 

WizeOne

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Re: Interesting distributor dilemma!

Re: Interesting distributor dilemma!

Umm that old barge in racing form yet..

Once I get the spark shooting in the right direction, they'll be no hope for your shiney sled!:p
 

Adjuster

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Re: Interesting distributor dilemma!

Re: Interesting distributor dilemma!

My Pertronix kit came with a spacer/washer specifically for this reason. Are you sure yours didn't? First you slide the magnetic collar over the shaft. Then on goes the metal washer/spacer. Then the rotor goes on the shaft. I would guess the spacer lifts the rotor maybe a 1/8".
 

WizeOne

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Re: Interesting distributor dilemma!

Re: Interesting distributor dilemma!

My Pertronix kit came with a spacer/washer specifically for this reason. Are you sure yours didn't? First you slide the magnetic collar over the shaft. Then on goes the metal washer/spacer. Then the rotor goes on the shaft. I would guess the spacer lifts the rotor maybe a 1/8".

Indeed, the Pertronix magnetic collar slides over the distributor shaft first. Then the rotor goes on top and inside the collar. The net result is that the collar probably causes the rotor to sit a little higher on the distributor shaft. Maybe that is why the Pertronix supplied rotor was .020 shorter than the 'stock' (Napa) rotor.

Still in view of that, the new, taller Napa rotor still does not sit high enough, inside the Napa Marine, non-vented cap with gasket.

I am going to contact a marine dealer and see if they have 'OEM' cap in stock. I will take my digital calipers and the old Napa cap with me.

I have no recollection of a metal washer/spacer coming with my setup. It's been a couple of years since I installed it.
 

WizeOne

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Re: Interesting distributor dilemma!

Re: Interesting distributor dilemma!

^Bump
 

JustJason

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Re: Interesting distributor dilemma!

Re: Interesting distributor dilemma!

The napa stuff is just repackaged sierra. Who knows if sierra stuff is correctly made or not... that's the chance you take by not going OEM.

Get new OEM cap rotor and gaket. And OHM out your plug wires and have a look at your plugs.
Bad wires can still fire but it takes a whole lot more voltage to do so. Same thing with plugs. If your getting ALOT of carbon in a short amount of time it's happening for a reason.

And btw, a cap rotor and plugs are a once a season/year maintenence item. Plug wires every 2 to 3.
 

WizeOne

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Re: Interesting distributor dilemma!

Re: Interesting distributor dilemma!

The napa stuff is just repackaged sierra. Who knows if sierra stuff is correctly made or not... that's the chance you take by not going OEM.

Get new OEM cap rotor and gaket. And OHM out your plug wires and have a look at your plugs.
Bad wires can still fire but it takes a whole lot more voltage to do so. Same thing with plugs. If your getting ALOT of carbon in a short amount of time it's happening for a reason.

And btw, a cap rotor and plugs are a once a season/year maintenence item. Plug wires every 2 to 3.


I am going to visit a dealer today. As for the plugwires, they are new and they are high tension. I am running both the Pertronix II and an MSD box.

All the issues you mention are valid. However even if the plugs and wires were marginal, that wouldn't account for the gross mismatch in rotor position.
 

CharlieB

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Re: Interesting distributor dilemma!

Re: Interesting distributor dilemma!

Parts catalogs HAVE been known to be WRONG. Many of us have crossed out and penned in corrections, that's a lot tougher to do on-line, and leaves a big mess of my computer screen.

Just because the cap fits your distributor does not mean that it is the correct application/height.

After you check the OEM cap re-check the cross reference catalog and see what cap comes up.
 

WizeOne

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Re: Interesting distributor dilemma!

Re: Interesting distributor dilemma!

Does anyone have a Prestolite Centrifugal Advance distributor at hand that they could measure the endplay of the rotor shaft?

I'm still trying to chase the misalignment of the rotor tip to the cap terminal studs. I don't know where I might find any specs so I'm trying to wing it by comparison.

I measured mine today and best I could determine, with dizzy in situ, was between .040 and 050 up and down play. That was measured using a 6" digital caliper.

That is quite a bit of play and, of course, as the rpm increases and decreases, the shaft would ride up and down. If the play was only supposed to be .010 to .015 that would probably lift my rotor tip up to the bottom of the cylinder terminal stud. Still not ideal placement, but closer to where it should be and I would not encounter the variation in spark transfer between idle and WOT.
 

Don S

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Re: Interesting distributor dilemma!

Re: Interesting distributor dilemma!

I think I have one at the shop, I'll be there in an hour or so and see if I can find it and check it out.
 

WizeOne

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Re: Interesting distributor dilemma!

Re: Interesting distributor dilemma!

I think I have one at the shop, I'll be there in an hour or so and see if I can find it and check it out.

Thanks Don.
 

WizeOne

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Re: Interesting distributor dilemma!

Re: Interesting distributor dilemma!

^bump
 

Don S

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Re: Interesting distributor dilemma!

Re: Interesting distributor dilemma!

Sorry to say, we did HAVE one there, the bad news is someone took the gear and roll pin. No way to measure with those missing.
Sorry 'bout that. :(
 

newport dave

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Re: Interesting distributor dilemma!***New Question!

Re: Interesting distributor dilemma!***New Question!

I have an old Prestolite distributor (snap down cap type) out of a marine Ford 302. It has exactly .053" of shaft end play. Nice attention to detail, by the way. Does the rotor tip look worn at the top edge (indicating the spark has been traveling upward)?

I had a customer that put a Pertronics conversion kit that was intended for GM (clockwise rotation Prestolite distributor) on his Ford 460 engine with a counter clockwise rotation Prestolite distributor. It would never run right after that and he could not figure out why. The conversion kit fit just fine since it was a Prestolite distributor, but the result was the rotor phasing was way off forcing the spark to jump off the edge of the rotor. This was obvious when looking at the wear on the leading edge of the rotor.
 

WizeOne

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Re: Interesting distributor dilemma!***New Question!

Re: Interesting distributor dilemma!***New Question!

I have an old Prestolite distributor (snap down cap type) out of a marine Ford 302. It has exactly .053" of shaft end play. Nice attention to detail, by the way. Does the rotor tip look worn at the top edge (indicating the spark has been traveling upward)?

I had a customer that put a Pertronics conversion kit that was intended for GM (clockwise rotation Prestolite distributor) on his Ford 460 engine with a counter clockwise rotation Prestolite distributor. It would never run right after that and he could not figure out why. The conversion kit fit just fine since it was a Prestolite distributor, but the result was the rotor phasing was way off forcing the spark to jump off the edge of the rotor. This was obvious when looking at the wear on the leading edge of the rotor.

Dave, thanks for measuring. I could have been more accurate if I had had the dizzy in hand, but I am sure that your endplay is identical to mine.

My rotor shows no wear because the running condition was new. I just discovered an issue that was the straw that broke the camels back. It accounts for a good part of the excessive gap (as illustrated) but still does not answer the total mis-alignment issue.

Just prior to the first outing I had the trouble, I pulled the cap and the paper gasket had disintegrated. I made a new gasket out of more durable material. Little did I realize, the new gasket material was about .045 thicker than the original paper gasket. This raised the cap enough to cause problems that were not evidenced before, but as mentioned did not account for the root mis-alignment as illustrated in my 'after gasket' drawing.

I will still use the new cap, sans gasket.

You bring up another issue that I just recently learned about and that is phasing. I am going to have to check that as well because I had to install a new steel dizzy gear when I went to a roller cam 5.0 motor. I did not pay any attention at all to the position of the gear on the shaft, only the height.

This had been done well before the homemade gasket issue where the big problem started, but may account for low idle issues I have had since installing the 5.0 motor. I could have that rotor trying to throw a spark 1/4" before or after the tip lines up with the cylinder terminal.

I will put a white mark on the rotor strap, install the old cap with the hole in the top, see if I can get the plug wires on without covering up the hole, then fire it up and use a timing light to see where the rotor is when it fires.

It maybe that I will have to re-drill the pertronix plate and reposition it. I'll let you know.
 

newport dave

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Re: Interesting distributor dilemma!***New Question!

Re: Interesting distributor dilemma!***New Question!

It was these kinds of issues that inspired me to build an ignition system test bench a few years ago. People think I'm crazy, but I think projects like this are fun.

testbench
 

WizeOne

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Re: Interesting distributor dilemma!***New Question!

Re: Interesting distributor dilemma!***New Question!

It was these kinds of issues that inspired me to build an ignition system test bench a few years ago. People think I'm crazy, but I think projects like this are fun.

testbench

Wow! Good lookin setup dave. Too bad I don't live in Van Nuys anymore. I'd bring my dizzy down and let you spin er up.:D
 

WizeOne

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Re: Interesting distributor dilemma!***New Question!

Re: Interesting distributor dilemma!***New Question!

Dave, you have a PM
 
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