The Over/Under Power Debate

[Silvertip]

The overpowering of a boat (using an engine larger than the max HP plate indicates) has been discussed at length in this and other forums. However, I just discovered a reason not to "underpower" your boat. I have a Suzuki 4-stroke on my pontoon. I received the extended warranty information in the mail today (finally) and was surprised to learn that using an engine that is too small for the boat voids the warranty. There is a very long list of other "we won't pay for" items but the underpowering issue really caught my eye. While there are rules for overpowering, I have never run across any rules regarding what an underpower situation is -- other than the 75% of maximum HP "rule of thumb". That is not an engine manufacturers rule but rather a general boating suggestion. I can understand under/over propping an engine as that's easy to prove. But under powering would seem to be tough to prove in court.

 

[QC]

Re: The Over/Under Power Debate

Underpowering would/could result in not reaching WOT RPM . . . are there specific WOT terms as well?

 

[Silvertip]

Re: The Over/Under Power Debate

Any engine, whether underpowered for the boat or not, can be propped to allow spinning the engine at its recommended WOT rpm. Granted, speed certainly becomes a factor. And yes, there is a wide open throttle statement as well. I was going to post that in the Suzuki forum. The statement reads as follows:

Item #11 indicates we will not pay benefits:

For a mechanical breakdown or overheating resulting from the misuse, abuse, alterations, an accident involving the approved outboard engine, operating the engine at continuous 100% throttle setting, insufficient cooling water supply, lack of or inadequate coolant or lubricant levels, lack of oil viscosity, sludge, restricted oil flow or failure to perform maintenance in accordance with the Suzuki published scheduled maintenance requirements.

So NO! They won't pay if you grenade the engine at wide open throttle even though in my case that would have to happen at about 600 rpm under the limiter setting because the engine is propped to run at exactly 5800 (spec) and the limiter is set to trigger about 6400 (or thereabouts). My old Evinrude spun at 6000 rpm for over 10 years without so much as a hiccup. So much for the new technology. Does the word "continuous" mean 1 minute, 1 hour, 1 day, or what??

There are 28 other items almost equally as "wordy". On top of all this, you better not make any modifications unless done by a Suzuki shop. Guess I better remove my water pressure gauge huh!!!!!!!!!! That clause says if you modify the engine rendering it ineligible for warranty, they can cancel the warranty and prorate the rebate. They also do not cover virtually all rubber parts, belts, anodes, prop shaft bushings and those are the items I can remember without re-reading the darned thing again.

Don't take this the wrong way folks -- this is a great engine but when you begin looking deeply into extended warranties (factory or aftermarket) make sure you know what you are buying or getting for free in my case.

 

[JB]

Re: The Over/Under Power Debate

I am sure glad I am not writing warranties and trying to discover and describe all of the ways the product can be abused/misused.

 

[QC]

Re: The Over/Under Power Debate

I've done just that ^^^^ and as a Salesman for the same product it is a little bit of the Fox guarding the hen-house

Definitely chock full of weasel words, and I guess they have to be. I was always taught (Caterpillar) though that the words "covers defects in material and workmanship" pretty much takes care of the whole shebang. Abuse is not a defect.

The continuous thing is counter to other manufacturers for sure. Although I would not assume that tight warranty language holds any indication as to their confidence in the product and technology. Separate departments. One is more legal in nature, the other Product Development.

I missed that it was "Extended", is there any underpowering or continuous language in the standard warranty? Extended warranties are basically an insurance policy with very little concern about the original product as far as marketing is concerned.

 

[Mercathode]

Re: The Over/Under Power Debate

Boat warranties are just as bad. Many require the the boat be "unrigged" and shipped at owners expense to the factory. Blistering is not covered.

The 4-strokes just can't handle the abuse like the 2's.

 

[steelespike]

Re: The Over/Under Power Debate

A new motor on a big house boat;Is that under powered?A 100hp might do 8 mph a 50 maybe 6 or 7 Is one or both underpowered?A 40 on a 20Ft pontoon
a 25 on a 18ft.you see factory setups like that.How about an auxillery for your sailboat,the kicker on your 20 footer. I'd sure like to see a definition of "underpowered".
"operating the outboard at continous 100%Throttle setting" If I run at 100% for each fishing hole change does that void coverage?
If its setup to run at 5,800 and I run at 5,700 and it fails ??
Does the computer record throttle settings.Big Brother is watching?

 

[bassboy1]

Re: The Over/Under Power Debate

Yeah, my first thought was how does a warranty on kickers go? In the next few years, we might see kicker ratings on the max capacity plate. Geez.

 

[QC]

Re: The Over/Under Power Debate

Another amazing bassboy moment

 

[Silvertip]

Re: The Over/Under Power Debate

Yes -- the ECM does monitor maximum engine rpm but I don't think it monitors the amount of time it spent at any rpm or at WOT as measured by the throttle position sensor. That would certainly be easily incorporated since it already monitors service intervals and total run time. The good thing is that I did not detect anywhere in the policy where it says scheduled service needs to be done by a Suzy dealer. However, I would recommend that if you do your own service (such as valve lash adjustment) that you create a log book and actually record the before and after specs for each valve. Record oil changes, lower unit service, impeller and stat replacements, etc. A log book is a powerful tool should it be presented in court. On my pontoon this engine is happiest at about 4800 rpm and it cruises nicely at that speed. The other 1000 rpm doesn't increase speed dramatically so I simply don't run WOT unless I'm seeing lightning or late for a meal. However this would be rather concerning on a quick boat that routinely needs WOT to get from point A to point B.

 

[steelespike]

Re: The Over/Under Power Debate

Yes -- the ECM does monitor maximum engine rpm but I don't think it monitors the amount of time it spent at any rpm or at WOT as measured by the throttle position sensor. That would certainly be easily incorporated since it already monitors service intervals and total run time. The good thing is that I did not detect anywhere in the policy where it says scheduled service needs to be done by a Suzy dealer. However, I would recommend that if you do your own service (such as valve lash adjustment) that you create a log book and actually record the before and after specs for each valve. Record oil changes, lower unit service, impeller and stat replacements, etc. A log book is a powerful tool should it be presented in court. On my pontoon this engine is happiest at about 4800 rpm and it cruises nicely at that speed. The other 1000 rpm doesn't increase speed dramatically so I simply don't run WOT unless I'm seeing lightning or late for a meal. However this would be rather concerning on a quick boat that routinely needs WOT to get from point A to point B.

Yes,I don't think the Bass pros run at 3/4 very often.

 

[DJ]

Re: The Over/Under Power Debate

Yes -- the ECM does monitor maximum engine rpm but I don't think it monitors the amount of time it spent at any rpm or at WOT as measured by the throttle position sensor. That would certainly be easily incorporated since it already monitors service intervals and total run time. The good thing is that I did not detect anywhere in the policy where it says scheduled service needs to be done by a Suzy dealer. However, I would recommend that if you do your own service (such as valve lash adjustment) that you create a log book and actually record the before and after specs for each valve. Record oil changes, lower unit service, impeller and stat replacements, etc. A log book is a powerful tool should it be presented in court. On my pontoon this engine is happiest at about 4800 rpm and it cruises nicely at that speed. The other 1000 rpm doesn't increase speed dramatically so I simply don't run WOT unless I'm seeing lightning or late for a meal. However this would be rather concerning on a quick boat that routinely needs WOT to get from point A to point B.

I believe the ECM does indeed record time at setting. I know e-tecs do. The print out shows a percentage of time the throttle was set at any one setting. The maps are impressive to look at.

"Warranty" is one of the most misunderstood words/concepts in the english language. I've had customers think that accidents (collision) were covered.

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: The Over/Under Power Debate

I see nothing in the warranty language that you posted that truly speaks to the issue of being "underpowered." What it addresses is running the motor outside of its design limitations. As some have said, kickers and sailboat auxilliaries push large boats on very few Ho all of the time - in that case, its all about how you prop them.

I agree with DJ on the recorded operational parameters. OMC/BRP motors have recorded a great deal of information for quite awhile. I am personally aware of a situation where a guy bought an ERude, ran it in the mud to the point of overheating it several times, and eventually blew the nearly brand new engine. He screamed bloody murder at my local OMC/BRP dealer demanding warranty work. That work was denied after the dealer not only told him that he had overheated the engine, but how many times he did so. I'm not sure if the computer records dates but I am wanting to say that it does. The end result was a very unhappy camper who had a financed $17,000 motor, that needed a very expensive new powerhead.

Yup, if you have a recently manufactured outboard, "big brother" is definately watching.

 

[DJ]

Re: The Over/Under Power Debate

I ERude, ran it in the mud to the point of overheating it several times, and eventually blew the nearly brand new engine. He screamed bloody murder at my local OMC/BRP dealer demanding warranty work. That work was denied after the dealer not only told him that he had overheated the engine, but how many times he did so. I'm not sure if the computer records dates but I am wanting to say that it does. The end result was a very unhappy camper who had a financed $17,000 motor, that needed a very expensive new powerhead.

Yup, if you have a recently manufactured outboard, "big brother" is definately watching.

I call that "responsibility". On both parties.

I don't see it as "big brother".

If I wreck something, it's MY responsibility. What a concept!

 

[Silvertip]

Re: The Over/Under Power Debate

Jay -- the "underpower" issue is what I'm contending would be hard to prove since the criteria is not specified. Over powering is easy to prove since all one needs to do is look at the max HP tag on the boat and the label on the engine. This warranty does not state what "underpower" means and I can't imagine what that description would be. Displacement hulls like sailboats have very small engines for their weight yet one could hardly say a 9.9 or a 15 is underpowered for that boat. Along similar lines, 16, 18, and 20 foot pontoons in my neck of the woods are routinely powered by 40 and 50 HP outboards which is hardly an underpower situation. If one looks at Bass Tracker pontoon literature 25 and 30 HP engines are specified on many of those entry level pontoons. On the contrary, someone that installs a 40 HP motor on a boat that has a max HP tag that read 150 could construe that the boat is underpowered, but only if the expectation was that the owner really expected the boat to get on plane. If the owner did not expect he/she could actually plane the boat, this would not be an underpower situation. In my view, a manufacturer that says they will not warranty an engine that is underpowered for the boat must specify what they actually consider under powering. This warranty info did not do that and I only posted the info as a potential issue for new boat/engine buyers.

 

[5150abf]

Re: The Over/Under Power Debate

I have heard that new engines keep a "rolling memory" of certain perameters, so if the engine grenades a tech can see what it was doing for the last 5-10 minutes of its life.

I'm sure the waranty writers try to take away all the claims they can in writing.

Bought a used car that came with a "warranty" turns out it didn't cover anything could actually go wrong.

 

[kaferhaus]

Re: The Over/Under Power Debate

Bought a used car that came with a "warranty" turns out it didn't cover anything could actually go wrong.

Most used car warranties are that way. And many "extended" warranties are too.

I have a neighbor who is a "finance and insurance" manager at a Toyota dealership. He says the dealership gets 50% of the fee for extended warranties... and the parts covered by the extended warranty (drive train mostly) always outlast the extention IF the car was maintained properly... which of course is the "out" for the insurance company once you have a claim.

Nothing that could actually wear out during the warranty period is covered.

On automatic transmissions they get you with the "failed to have transmission serviced at recommended interval(s). Almost no one ever gets the transmission fluid changed...

I never buy extended warranties.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: The Over/Under Power Debate

We are diverging here but almost nobody gets their automatic transmission fluid changed because the owners manual say it is not necessary -- just like 100,000 mile tune ups. If the tranny fails before 100,000 miles, it cannot be blamed on failure to change tranny fluid. I just changed the distributor cap, rotor and plugs on my truck that has 62,000 miles on it. I suspected a problem because ignition noise was screwing with my garage door opener. Upon inspection both the rotor and cap were in the process of total destruction. Replaced them and the problem is gone. If this had caused an engine problem, I would be in court dragging the manufacturer over the coals if they failed to cover the damage under warranty. People buy warranties to protect themselves from the expense of "premature failure" of parts, not parts that simply wear out (although that certainly happens as well). Most vehicles today will easily run 150,000 miles with reasonable care and maintenance and warranty work is way down from what it used to be. But the fact remains, stuff happens and parts do break prematurely.

 

[scipper77]

Re: The Over/Under Power Debate

I have heard that new engines keep a "rolling memory" of certain perameters, so if the engine grenades a tech can see what it was doing for the last 5-10 minutes of its life.

I'm sure the waranty writers try to take away all the claims they can in writing.

Bought a used car that came with a "warranty" turns out it didn't cover anything could actually go wrong.

I just learned that my car has a "dealer diagnostic" feature built in to the dash. You just have to know the secret way to access it. It turns the digital odometer into a little computer that tells you all sorts of things about the car while it is running. It does digital tack, digital speedo, coolant temp to the degree, fuel pressure in psi, engine hours, battery volts, and a bunch of other stuff.
I'm sure that they took the time to add a little 100k memory chip to to add a data logger feature.

BTW, It's a ford focus but my wives Escape does this also and I'm sure that so does the explorer, and F-150.