Water pressure is low...

[Mark42]

Lately the water pressure upstairs has not been very good. It has gotten so low at times that if both showers are on at the same time, one will kick off the shower head and run water out the spiggot.

The house has a well and large pressure/holding tank. Both the tank and the well pump were replaced about 6 years ago, and are heavy duty for the house needs. There is also a cartrige type filter after the pressure tankl and before the water softener.

I let the water run and the well kicks on at 35 psi and off at 60 psi. which is how its been for years. I had replaced the cartrige filter about 2 months ago when I first noticed the pressure drop. When the filter starts to clog, pressure drops and that's how I know to replace it. Takes about 4-6 months to clog. Putting in a new cartridge didn't seem to make much difference.

This morning I put both showers on, and then opened the water softener bypass valve. That made a big difference. The water was coming out nice and strong in both showers. So I put the softener on recharge. This evening it didn't seem to make much difference. So I adjusted the water pressure to raise the cut in to 40psi, and still cut out at 60psi. Its a little better, but not great.

So I think the softener is the problem. Do they "go bad" and have the media bed clog up? It seems that passing water through the filter is cutting the pressure more than it used to. I recall that the softer said it will cut about 5 psi off the line. Must be much more than that now. The softener was put in around 1999 or 2000 and is a large capacity Sears unit.

Any suggestions or comments? Think I need to replace the softener?

 

[rwise]

Re: Water pressure is low...

I had a home that had a softener, after seeing what the inside of the pipes looked like from the salt I removed it! Of course the damage was done. Also I always ran the top end at 75 psi on most of the wells I have had and the bottom at 50-60 psi. Takes a bit more electric, but I like a good shower. Maybe someone will have a way to clean it out but it sounds like the softener is going to need replaced,,,,, have you taken a pressure reading on the output side? how much does it drop?

 

[Mark42]

Re: Water pressure is low...

I had a home that had a softener, after seeing what the inside of the pipes looked like from the salt I removed it! Of course the damage was done. Also I always ran the top end at 75 psi on most of the wells I have had and the bottom at 50-60 psi. Takes a bit more electric, but I like a good shower. Maybe someone will have a way to clean it out but it sounds like the softener is going to need replaced,,,,, have you taken a pressure reading on the output side? how much does it drop?

Right now I don't have a way to measure the pressure in the system (other than the gauge on the tank). The pressure control on the tank has a max limit of 80psi, but I don't like to run things at their max, 60 - 30 psi has always been fine up until now.

Funny about your experience with the softener and pipes. My last house never had a softener, and the pipes were always getting pin hole leaks. They were so badly erroded away you could crush the pipe with your bare hands. I replaced most of the pipe in that house. It was bright green inside with heavy grooves cut in it. My current house does not have that problem. When I cut a pipe, it has a thin black layer that dries to dust on your finger. Its not corroded at all. I'm told the black is a type of iron, but not in enough concentration to discolor toilets, etc. Without a softener, the hot water coil will clog with calcium.

The pressure seems good this morning, and the water is soft, so it looks like the softener is softening the water. Maybe I'll get a new filter, could be it clogged up early with sediment. Its often covered in a fine brown mud when I change it and a tablespoon of sand in the bottom.

 

[Bob_VT]

Re: Water pressure is low...

I run straight well water..... I have seen people service their softeners because of crud build up in the screens. Sounds like your system is clogging and needs to be serviced.

 

[WizeOne]

Re: Water pressure is low...

Mark, first of all the standard operating pressure spread is 20 lbs. Any switch you buy today will come with that spread whether it is factory set for 30-50 or 40-60 psi. Personally I would run it at 50-70. There is nothing in the home that will not withstand that setting.

But critical here, is the system balance. This is something that is mostly overlooked. With your bladder (I assume) pressure tank, the precharge must me set at 2 lbs below whatever pump turn on pressure you have set. So, for a 50 lb turn on, you want to precharge your tank to 48 psi. If there are no leaks in your bladder (should not be at that age) you will never loose this charge. From my experience, even most professionals ignore this. They take a new tank, out of the box, and plumb it in. They never check the switch setting and they never check the tank charge. Even if they do, then some homeowners will re-adjust the switch and knock things out of balance.

You need to check and adjust the precharge pressure with the well pump turned off and the pressure tank drained of water. If you have a shut off valve to the house, close it. Otherwise you need to shut off your electric water heater or shut the feed valve, to it off. If you don't do this you can syphon water back out of the heater and expose electrical elements. This will cook them instantly.

Also, what size filter are you using? (4.5 x 10 or 20" or 2" x 10 or 20") Also what is the micron rating of the cartridge?

Water softeners can be responsible for gross pressure loss in 4 areas but with your prefilter I doubt that any of those are affected. Depending on your brand you would have top and bottom distributor baskets that could clog up. At least one older brand had an inlet screen washer. (like on a washing machine) The resin itself could be come fouled with iron oxide, silt or mud. The passages in the control valve could become clogged with, typically, iron oxide build up.

Do not let anyone scare you about water softeners eroding pipes. They do not put salt in the water for starters. Only acidic water will cause pinholes in pipes and water softeners do not affect the pH of the water.

 

[SuzukiChopper]

Re: Water pressure is low...

Do not let anyone scare you about water softeners eroding pipes. They do not put salt in the water for starters. Only acidic water will cause pinholes in pipes and water softeners do not affect the pH of the water.

Definitely not the softener that causes corroded or "green" copper pipes. Any reputable water shop will always do tests to your water (including PH) to determine if any other systems need to be put in place other then a softener because that's the only way a softener will be most effective. If you're noticing copper pipes with green in them and corrosion, it's time to have your water tested and a proper treatment put in place. For the proof it's the acid, ever notice green around pipe joints? That's generally from the plumber not cleaning the flux (acidic) from the joint properly after soldering.

 

[Mark42]

Re: Water pressure is low...

I have to pick up a few filter cardridges and then I install a new filter and check the screen on the softener at the same time. I hope there is nothing clogging the softener screen, that would mean the filter is not catching all the particulate. I use the white 4.5" x 10" sediment filter. Who knows, maybe it clogged up early. And there is no bypass on the filter, when it clogs, its clogged.

 

[WizeOne]

Re: Water pressure is low...

I have to pick up a few filter cardridges and then I install a new filter and check the screen on the softener at the same time. I hope there is nothing clogging the softener screen, that would mean the filter is not catching all the particulate. I use the white 4.5" x 10" sediment filter. Who knows, maybe it clogged up early. And there is no bypass on the filter, when it clogs, its clogged.

U still did not answer my question as to the micron rating of the cartridge you were using. This stuff is not rocket science but it is mathmatical in a sense. I other words, it is not willy nilly and there is a solution for every set of circumstances.

Your softener, depending on brand, most likely, does not have an inlet screen filter. (depending on brand) And yes, you should check the filter cartdrige as it is the most likely point of blockage.

Also, you should have cheapo pressure guages before and after the filter. Wells that emit solid matter usually do so in a varying manner. Dissolve substances that water softeners remove are typically more homogenous. Solid particulate can and will vary depending on well water levels and surface water activity.

 

[Mark42]

Re: Water pressure is low...

U still did not answer my question as to the micron rating of the cartridge you were using. This stuff is not rocket science but it is mathmatical in a sense. I other words, it is not willy nilly and there is a solution for every set of circumstances.

......

I didn't say because I don't know, and I don't have another filter to get the micron rating off of. I'll post what it is when I pick up new filter cartridges.

Thanks for the info, sounds like you are well versed in this topic.

 

[SS MAYFLOAT]

Re: Water pressure is low...

Oh those wonderful water problems. I agree about the balance on the pressure tank. A water logged pressure tank will cause your pump to cycle on and off prematurely as well. In one of our stores, we had a similar problem. We had to install an extra filter. We used a larger micron as a pre-filter for our regular filter. That took care of the problem.

I have found out that on well water that the time of the year also has a lot to do with how the water table flows. If the flow is strong and active, lots more sediment will be in the pumped water. Also lots of rain activity in the area can effect water quality as well.

If it was my system, I would drain the system especially the pressure tank. It can have sediment in it making your filter to clog much quicker.

FWIW, Copper lines that have the green coating is in fact corrosion, but it is also a micro bacterial killer. This helps in making the water safer for human consumption. This is the main reason why copper is preferred and considered the best to use for plumbing. It aids in preventing the water that stands in the pipes for periods of time from becoming stagnant.

 

[WizeOne]

Re: Water pressure is low...

Not sure what you are referring to Mayfloat but filter micron rating will have nothing whatsover to do with whether or not a pressure tank is responsible for short cycling.

Also modern bladder style tanks will not accumulate sediment as there is only one inlet/outlet pipe and that is located dead center bottom of the bladder. What goes in immediatley comes out. Only the older style, straight walled non-bladder captive air tanks would accumulate sediment. These tanks had their inlet and outlet lines several inches up from the bottom, on the sidewall. Sediment would accumulate in this style tank and come out in slugs as the sediment built up on the floor of the tank.

 

[v1_0]

Re: Water pressure is low...

This morning I put both showers on, and then opened the water softener bypass valve. That made a big difference. The water was coming out nice and strong in both showers. So I put the softener on recharge. This evening it didn't seem to make much difference. So I adjusted the water pressure to raise the cut in to 40psi, and still cut out at 60psi. Its a little better, but not great.

So I think the softener is the problem.

I'd say you *proved* the water softener is the problem. If it was something else, like the pipes, then bypassing the water softener would make little or no difference. Since it did, I would say focus on it.

Do they "go bad" and have the media bed clog up? It seems that passing water through the filter is cutting the pressure more than it used to. I recall that the softer said it will cut about 5 psi off the line. Must be much more than that now. The softener was put in around 1999 or 2000 and is a large capacity Sears unit.

It does sound like your bed is clogged up. This can happen over time. The prefilter isn't perfect - it only filters down to a certain size. Smaller ("silt") stuff will still get through it, depending on what cartridges you use in it.

Can you backflush the water softener? This is different than doing the 'recharge':
The recharge cycle pumps some water into a tank that contains salt, then pulls the saltwater into the media and lets it soak. After a preset time, it (forward) flushes the salt out into the discharge. The idea is that it's calcium (and other minerals) in your water that makes it 'hard'. The media in your softener 'attracts' the calcium out of the water, but there is a limit to how much it can... 'hold'.. The calcium is *more* attracted to the salt, so the salt 'bath' and rinse cleans the media.

Now, a backflush *reverses* the flow of water - so your 'in' becomes a discharge, and your 'out' becomes an 'in'. This physically pushes things out of the filter - in the reverse direction than they have been accumulating. (It will NOT regenerate it by itself). The theory (hope) is that the 'silt' is thickest at the start ('in') of the filter, and thins out as it goes further in (and closer to the outlet).

I've found that switching between forward flow (into discharge) and reverse flow (into discharge) will clean things out better - sort of like 'rocking' a car in snow.

One thing - I'm using 'silt' as a generic term for 'stuff that will clog your filter'.

Not knowing all the units that are out there, I would recommend that you check yours to see if there is a backflush feature - it may be stand alone, or it may be combined with your regenerate. It could also be plumbed into your lines - there will be some valves to redirect water so it goes into the 'out' and the 'in' will be redirected to the discharge.

One other thing - yes, water softeners can have a life span. Backflushing isn't perfect either, too - so over time 'stuff' will accumulate in your water softener...

-V

 

[WizeOne]

Re: Water pressure is low...

Duplicate post!

 

[WizeOne]

Re: Water pressure is low...

....Can you backflush the water softener? This is different than doing the 'recharge':...

Beg to differ a bit v1_0. All water softeners have backwash capability. It is programmed in to the total recharge sequence. Once the brine has been introduced into the resin bed, to recharge the resin, the softener control valve reverses the water flow thru the tank to rid the resin bed of and excess sodium chloride. This reverse flow is restricted to a specific, low GPM flow to avoid either lifting the resin bed up and out the drain or to keep it from packing up against the upper distributor. If that were to occur, the system would not get sufficient water flow to rinse the salt out and once the softener valve returned to it's 'service' position you would have salty water in the house.

As water softeners are not filters, but ion exchangers, their backwash flow, which it goes thru on every cylcle, is not powerfull enough to rid the bed of heavy silt/mud that may accumulate down at the bottom of the resin.

There is no way to bypass this regulated flow in the backwash function. If the bed is fouled, to the point of reducing pressure, the only way to deal with it is dump the resin and put in a new load along with the typical gravel base.

Otherwize, resin is virtually indestructable and will last the life of the mechanical unit.

 

[a70eliminator]

Re: Water pressure is low...

I have a suggestion that may just help you, take a close look at the valve actuator while you induce a manual regeneration cycle, there is a cam that will rotate, attached to it is a lever that slides a piston within the diverter valve, this lever can corrode and break as well as the plastic cam causing the piston within the diverter valve to just stop in a random position and would cause flow problems, and hard water of course. good luck I hate plumbing.

 

[v1_0]

Re: Water pressure is low...

Beg to differ a bit v1_0. All water softeners have backwash capability. It is programmed in to the total recharge sequence. Once the brine has been introduced into the resin bed, to recharge the resin, the softener control valve reverses the water flow thru the tank to rid the resin bed of and excess sodium chloride.

That's not what the Sears MANUAL says about it (I have bolded the relevant text):
"BRINE RINSE: After all of the brine goes into
the resin tank, the brine valve closes. Water
keeps flowing the same way it did during
brining except the brine flow has stopped.
Hardness minerals and brine flush from the
resin tank to the drain. Brining and brine rinse
together vary in the length of time they take,
relative to the fill cycle length."

This is for models 625.3485400 and 625.3485500.

To be fair, the two models do have a backwash capability and it occurs automatically *after* regeneration. But, I wouldn't make a claim that this is true for ALL water softeners.

-V

 

[WizeOne]

Re: Water pressure is low...

ALL water softeners have a control valve backwash position that is engaged, in sequence, during the whole of the 'regeneration' cycle. If that were not the case, as mentioned above, you would have salty water in the home after the 'cycle'. The 'brine rinse' that the Sears manual refers to is not a seperate valve position but a continuation of the brine draw valve position, once the salt tank has run out of brine. This slow upward rinse of fresh water continues to move the salt charge up thru the resin bed. It is not intended to thoroughly rid the bed of salt brine, but to continue moving the released ions of calcium and magnesium up and out the drain at a calculated rate.

Brine is drawn from the salt tank by running a 3/10 gpm flow of water, in a loop and thru a venturi which creates suction at the bottom of the brine assembly. When all the brine is drawn from the tank the slow flow of water continues thru the resin tank and out the drain. When that pre-programmed valve position changes, a higher flow of water (usually 2-3 gpm) is sent upward thru the resin and out the drain to continue the rinsing of the resin bed. This valve position is the 'backwash' position but at a lower flow rate (2-3 gpm) than any backwashing filter would have. (7-10 gpm)