New prop for 88 javelin

ASwan73

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I have a 1988 javelin 356 with a 1989 Johnson 70 hp vro on it. Currently have a 12.75x17 four blade prop on it running at 5300-5400 rpm at wot. I am getting 32 mph gps speed from it. Looking for ideas on how to get more speed with a decent hole shot. I have the original prop for the motor it is a 3 blade 14x17. I have tried this prop and I get a better hole shot with the 4 blade but same top end speed. I am in need of a new prop soon as I have damaged mine over the past weekend badly.
 

Texasmark

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Not familiar with your hull and length but 32 with a 70 on any kind of boat and load is not bad. You can only get so much blood out of a turnip.

You didn't say but I'd assume you are running alum. Your rpms are probably right at the upper recommended limit which is where you want to run. Running the bottom end, aka lugging to me, is not where you want to be with a 2 stroker and tuning in more pitch will just do that. iboats sells Turning Point Hustler props in alum. If you get one that's ported (holes in the barrel under the leading edge of each blade) which most are, you can get the hole shot that the 4 blade gives you. The prop is cupped which could give you a little more speed and better bite at the higher rpms. If you are trimmed out right, you MIGHT pick up a mile or two without loosing too many rpms. Would suggest you stay where you started with the added amenities mentioned at 14x17. Cost is about a hundred bucks. Good prop. The ports decrease the density of the water flowing across the blades and let you get your rpms up faster which gets your hp up faster and hole shot faster. You will notice 1000 rpm give or take increase in hole shot rpms with a ported prop but once out of the hole and off and running the rpms will drop back to normal.....that's the way it's designed to work.

What you get with changes is hard to determine as boat performance changes which changes the load on the engine and can mean more gain than anticipated, like better bow lift, less wetted area, less drag, more rpms and more mph. Never know till you run it.
 

ASwan73

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My hull is a 16' fiberglass bass boat. I am running an aluminum prop since we have rocky bottom lakes in northern Pennsylvania where I am at. I was looking at getting the hustler prop in 4 blade 13x17 diameter and pitch. Seems that would be my closest match to the one I have on it now and get good performance out of. The 14x17 factory prop that I have just barely clears everything so I would like a little extra clearance just in case a bearing goes bad or something happens. As for my rpm range my manual says from 5000-6000 rpms is optimal for my engine. I'd like to hit the upper end of the rpm range at like 5600-5800.
 

Texasmark

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Is it cupped? Being a 4 blade maybe not but dropping to 13" dia, the cupping would probably make up for the 1" diameter loss.....but diameter changes are minor as compared to pitch, but 1" of dia on a 14" is 8%....noticeable. Is it ported? Big if. You don't want it ported with 4 blades in my opinion. The 4th blade should give you the hole shot you want; don't need the porting for that.

If the Hustler is not ported and not cupped then you may pick up a hundred rpm with the diameter decrease and maybe a mph. You're talking about a hundred bucks, maybe a tad more with the 4th blade. Don't know your financial position but you haven't lost all that much if you guess and miss. At least you will have a spare prop.

Iterating, you can only get so much out of your present rig. To get more, something has to change. If you want more rpm you are going to have to cut pitch and that will cut speed. If you want more mph you have to increase pitch and that will put the engine down in the "lugging" range where 2 strokers don't like to run, and that will cost you in your hole shot...longer and sloppier.
-----------------------------------------

This was my initial thinking. I decided to go to the prop section and pull up Hustler props for your engine. I suppose you are referring to Hustler's 13 1/4 x 17, part number 21431730. It is raked, and cupped, but not sure if ported. In their sales info they say from 17+ pitch some are ported and some aren't......scroll down in their prop listing and you will see all their attributes of which porting is mentioned. I think you need to know and as I said I don't think you want porting to go along with your 4 blades. Call iboats and ask.

This prop is cupped so you will get more engine loading than with your current prop if not cupped and if alum and not Hustler brand it probably isn't....if the end of the blade doesn't have a slight curve to the last 3/8" it's not cupped.

Looking back at your original posting your 5300-5400 is not that far off your min stated 5000 and with the prop you selected you are going to drop down from that. Personally you are going the wrong way. You want the rpms up and the top speed will just have to fall where it falls. 70 hp is 70 hp.

Good luck.
 

ASwan73

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I don't believe it to be cupped. According to the size and specs of the current 12.75x17 prop I believe it to be a Solas 4 blade prop. That's why I was looking at the hustler 4 blade prop in the 13x17 prop. It runs great at that range but would like just a little more if I could get to 35 mph I would be happy. I like the way it performs now but I feel it can do a little better.

In your opinion with the info that I gave you what pitch would be the best to get my toms up but still maintain good hole shot and top end?
 

Texasmark

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I don't believe it to be cupped. According to the size and specs of the current 12.75x17 prop I believe it to be a Solas 4 blade prop. That's why I was looking at the hustler 4 blade prop in the 13x17 prop. It runs great at that range but would like just a little more if I could get to 35 mph I would be happy. I like the way it performs now but I feel it can do a little better.

In your opinion with the info that I gave you what pitch would be the best to get my toms up but still maintain good hole shot and top end?

My opinion: Something has to change. If you weren't loading up your engine with what you have, your rpms would be higher. I keep mentioning blood out of a turnip, but that is what it is. You need more ponies, less slip maybe, or less drag.

Upping the ponies.....obvious
Less slip.....prop with more grab to propel you faster considering nothing else changes which it will. 2 things will change: either the increase in grab will not change the "aquadynamics" of your boat and the drag will remain constant causing the increased load to pull your rpms down farther than they already are and then it's a trade off between engine capabilities vs less prop slip. One thing you never see is the torque curve. Funny as it may seem, back in '68 when OMC came out with the "Triumph" (the name given to the 55 hp, triple, loop charged, Evinrude half of OMC's 2 stroke technology triumph) I was in a dealer one day and posted on the wall were several advertising banners illustrating the merits of the engine in an effort to boost sales. Posted clearly on one of those banners was the torque curve of the engine. Obviously I have forgotten what it looks like. We are still working on the "engine loading potential" of changing the prop's grab so don't get lost.

HP =[Torque (ft-lbs) x RPM]/ 5252 which is the standard, industry published, "quickie calculation" for HP. If the torque curve peak is back around 2500 rpms, and falls off as rpms increase (which is the norm for most internal combustion engines) as you load up the engine and pull the rpms down, the torque increases, meaning that your available HP may remain constant. So now this different prop with more bite is not loading the engine as much as it might have and the result can be an increase in MPH.

Less drag: How much drag is on your engine when you rev it in neutral? Not much. How fast and far do the rpms ramp up? Fast and far..........

Getting the hull out of the water reduces drag. On bass boats there is usually a dead rise (v shape) until you get to the bottom center of the hull and then the v flattens out to a horizontal line. Line is roughly 10" wide. Length may be half a dozen feet or so, but at WOT not much of that is in use. This is referred to as the "Pad" and BBs ride the pad when they want to be the first to their favorite "honey hole". The area of the hull touching the water is less than 60 square inches when hooked up on the pad with the trim set correctly and all that. The boat may weigh 3000# and be 20+ ft. long but the water interface doesn't know that. Result lightening fast speed for what a given hp engine could produce otherwise. Had the boat not been on the pad, the exposed area would be 50 times that and no way could you get any kind of dazzling speed out of that.

As your boat increases in speed after planing out, you are reducing the drag due to less hull to water contact. Anything you can do to get the spray finer (smaller droplets, aka misting which happens to a greater degree as speed increases) and break away from the boat farther back toward the transom is lightening the drag and it is an accumulative effect; the faster you go the less drag, the higher the rpms the higher the thrust which pushes the boat faster, etc. etc.

So change something and you can get more from what you have.

Might try this. Get some help first, another person. With your boat on your trailer parked on a concrete surface, carefully unbolt it from the transom while holding it where it can't fall over. Using your tongue jack on your trailer, jack the front (bow) of the boat up which will cause the transom to go down. Continue until you can put your mounting bolts in the next hole down on the engine. This should put your transom clamp bracket, that used to be sitting on your transom, 3/4" above it. Bolt and seal everything back down like it was and take it out and run it, recording data.

Come back with the answer with respect to hole shot performance, tight turns at high trim angles an high throttle settings, heading into reasonably sized waves at a fairly high speed and high trim angles, and just straight flat out running. Engine trim is important in this test so trim for the best performance so that you have a feel for what has changed.

Two things will come into play: Your boat should feel a lot lighter to the helm (steering) and with your trim set to the best position you will probably gain a couple of mph or more if the aquadynamics of the boat get into the picture like they should. What this may cost you is a little ventilation you don't currently have....ventilation defined as the engine revving up under turns or rough water and speed falling off slightly. If you get there, you just solved your problem with engine loading and buying a cupped prop will either solve or minimize the ventilation with the right trim position which is usually tucked in a little from where it was when you were running at WOT in a straightaway. So you may be able to get your desired "little bit more" with nothing more than a prop change. But I'll tell you right now: What you get out of this effort of your's won't be enough, regardless of the number. It's called human nature. Wink!

I'll wait for you.
,
 

ASwan73

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I took the boat out today to check a few things out that you mentioned. I am currently set on the second to last hole on the transom motor mount and it planes out to about 1/4 of the hull still in the water and runs 30 mph. However in hard corners I am ventilating as the engine revs to 6000 tons and the hull almost power slides around the corner. My wot position today is at 5400 rpms according to my tach. I am unsure if raising the motor mount up to the last hole will help but it may and I might try it but after I get my new prop. I also have a hydrofoil stabilizer on it if that make a difference. If I trim the motor up with the power trim then my bow starts to jump. If I trim it down then more hull in the water and therefore more drag and less speed. I don't know if I have found the happy medium for the trim or if I need to go up more to get outta the water more or not. I'm afraid the boat will jump so far that it will catch air and flip over. I'm hoping with a new prop it will change something and be more "stable".
 

Texasmark

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I took the boat out today to check a few things out that you mentioned. I am currently set on the second to last hole on the transom motor mount and it planes out to about 1/4 of the hull still in the water and runs 30 mph. However in hard corners I am ventilating as the engine revs to 6000 tons and the hull almost power slides around the corner. My wot position today is at 5400 rpms according to my tach. I am unsure if raising the motor mount up to the last hole will help but it may and I might try it but after I get my new prop. I also have a hydrofoil stabilizer on it if that make a difference. If I trim the motor up with the power trim then my bow starts to jump. If I trim it down then more hull in the water and therefore more drag and less speed. I don't know if I have found the happy medium for the trim or if I need to go up more to get outta the water more or not. I'm afraid the boat will jump so far that it will catch air and flip over. I'm hoping with a new prop it will change something and be more "stable".

Following your reply:

1/4 of the hull still in the water says you are already minimizing your hull to water contact. Good

You said it runs 30 but initially you said you can run 32 but temperature and water conditions, plus load you are carrying can change that.

Your comment about ventilation and power sliding says to me that you are already up where you need to be on engine height. That comment was what I was waiting for you to tell me after you jacked your engine up. You are already there so don't jack it up.

Why do you have the hydrofoil? Did you put it on there? If so, what were the circumstances. If you bought the boat that way, take it off for a test run and get back with the changes from current conditions.

At 30 mph your boat will not flip over on you. At 100 maybe and I saw a guy at 200 and it did and killed him and his boat.

If you are trimming out and getting porpoising, you're hull to water relationship is where I think it should be. Porpoising only occurs when the boat is on top of the water and at a good speed, so first of all you are there. Secondly it is different with every boat but it is causes and cured by speed vs engine angle. For a given speed, being a speed fast enough for your boat to be on the water and able to do it, trimming out too far causes it. 2 ways to stop it. Apply more power at that trim setting till it stops, or if you are firewalled with you power you have to tuck the trim in till it quits.

How long is your boat? I pulled up some pictures and info on the Javelin 356 bass boat and saw engine hp up to 225 hp on a 20 ft. Lots of 90's and 150's. Saw one newish one for sale with a 60 hp 4 stroker. After seeing the other listings bet it's for sale because it's underpowered. One guy was running his at 55 gps once with a Yammy 130 on an 18 footer. So I have seen 16, 18, and 20 info from owners. Where I'm heading with this is that with what you are telling me with your comments today and my looking at the hull shape on the www and all, your boat is giving you all you can expect from it. Your main dissatisfaction is lack of power, period. That hull is a good hole shot hull and will do a great top end although will be rough riding in a good chop, but you can't have both in a hull, sorry but that's the physics of hull aquadyhamics......after 50 years of doodling with the subject and a couple of dozen boats of different hull configurations, I know a little about it.

Usually the big guns on here say to get your "setup" first then tweak the prop. Seems to me you have your setup. So let's see what your prop selection will do for you.

Stay tuned,
Mark
 

ASwan73

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The hydrofoil was on the boat when I bought it and when he bought it outta Virginia. I was thinking about taking it off anyways to see what happens. As for the length of my boat it is 16 foot bow to stern. I'm unsure if I can put a bigger motor on it but I may be able to go up to a 90 hp max on it. I am applying max throttle at the trim setting that gives me the best ride I guess you would say. As far as water condition yesterday they were glass calm and the load was me at 265lbs and prolly 300 lbs of gear all together. I am thinking my loss of speed is so to my damaged prop. If you look at my profile pic. It is of one of the 4 damaged fins. They all look like that.
 

Texasmark

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I agree with you in that it's time to do the prop. The fin will help you on hole shot, faster, and slow speeds better control staying on plane. So will the 4th blade. But it usually costs you on WOT speed as it is just something else to cause drag. The 4th blade too because there is only so much water going by the engine in that 13" diameter tube known as the prop wash and the more blades the more potential thrust but also the more the turbulence. That's why the ported 3 blade prop was invented.....acted like a 4 blade in the hole shot and a 3 blade at WOT. Who knows what was with your PO as to why he rigged it as he did. For that boat and engine seems like a 1 2 punch to have both whales tale and 4th blade.

Along the lines of what I just said, I don't want to confuse you but a ported 3 blade can gain you a mile or two at WOT due to reducing the number of blades and the ports help in the hole shot, making the engine rev somewhat, getting the rpms up gets the hp up, increases your prop thrust faster under the demanding load of the shot and making it faster to complete. Usually going from a 4 to a 3 you can go up an inch in pitch, but if you get a ported prop that is cupped, like the 3 blade Hustler, you gained that inch with the cup.

If you don't like the hole shot you can always put the fin back on, but you might like it with the ported 3 blade alone and would do best without it with your wanting more mph.

Props are a crap shoot till in the water and run, period. Everything is pure speculation, educated speculation, but none the less speculation.

You make your best decision on what you want to buy. I'm just here to hopefully help you make the right decision.

The ported prop at slow speeds can drop back to hole shot rpms which means that your engine revs up about 1000 rpm and your speed drops off and that could be a nuisance if you do a lot of that. If you are just coming off a plane like going into a no wake zone you wouldn't even notice it. But if you were a sunday afternoon cruiser, cruising just on plane, like 20 mph area for an extended time, it could be a nuisance.

The other thing on a ported prop is tight turns at high trim levels, it can ventilate and bring up your rpms there also, but locks right back once you straighten out...you shouldn't be going full blast through a tight turn anyway. I had ported props and always tucked the trim in a tad while reducing the throttle till I was straightened back out.

In rough water where you are running into the chop at say 90% of WOT it could jump between lock and porting due to the wave action coming and going across the prop. Course dropping your trim a little till it stops will cure that and it will also put more of your bow down into the chop which would be smoother riding, but slower, but in a chop you are more interested in safety and staying dry and safe.

Be in touch
 

ASwan73

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Thanks for the great info. I have been research the different style prop and will probably go back to the three blade and try it without the hydrofoil on and see how it does since that was the original way the engine was developed to run anyways. I don't really run in a hard chop as your describing since the lakes around me are only around 1600 acres or so. I don't run the big lakes like Lake Erie and that with this dingy of a boat if you may. Usually I can skip right across the top of the chop if it gets bad around here.
 

Texasmark

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Thanks for the great info. I have been research the different style prop and will probably go back to the three blade and try it without the hydrofoil on and see how it does since that was the original way the engine was developed to run anyways. I don't really run in a hard chop as your describing since the lakes around me are only around 1600 acres or so. I don't run the big lakes like Lake Erie and that with this dingy of a boat if you may. Usually I can skip right across the top of the chop if it gets bad around here.

My favorite the last 5 years was a city lake of 1000 acres and as you said, it was too small to get some really big waves and beat you up. That was one reason I liked it, the second it has a dock adjacent to the launch and most of the other lakes were Corps of Engineer lakes and no dock. Last reason was the drought we have had. This one remained reasonably full and you could launch before your trailer tires ran out of concrete.

You make a good point about what came from the factory. Again knowing what the PO was all about would really help.
 

ASwan73

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Ok guys an update for you. I put the 3 blade prop on that 14X17 without the hydrofoil. It took forever to get on plane and once on plane it would continually porpoise with the trim all the way down. Not a good thing. So I put the hydrofoil back on and made it ten times better with getting on plane a lot faster and no porpoising. Still looking at getting a different prop though since this one is out of balance as the motor shakes and stutters if idling along. I read through my service manual to find that the euro models came with a 13 1/4 x 17 prop.

Mind you the lake I was on is 1100 acres and was glass calm both days I took the boat out on it so no wave or wake issues to take into consideration.
 
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