1985 50 hp High Idle, Rough Running, Apparent Air Leak? Model E50BELCO

Ed Clark

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Bought the subject motor recently to replace a '66 80 hp V4 Johnson on a '66 aluminum AeroCraft. The Johnson is still running strong, but is way too much of a gas hog for my taste (2+ mpg). Have only run the "new" motor on muffs. Starts immediately. At recommended synchronization settings, idles at 1700 to 3000 rpm. Runs very "rough" similar to bad out-of-sync carb situation. Runs rough at idle and when revved up. Although, only occasionally "lean coughs." Can bring the idle down to less than 1000 only by severely retarding the ignition which causes even rougher running, of course.

As for the ignition system, I'm tentatively ruling that out at present. The spark is hotter than a firecracker on both cylinders, is in perfect specified time, and is steady as a rock under the timing light. As a dumb check, I've also pulled the plug wires on each cylinders while running and the darn thing continues to run at an elevated idle on one cylinder. Also have checked cylinder two under the timing light and it's perfect also. Don't suspect power pack. I won't rule ignition out, but I'm presently looking elsewhere.

BTW, compression is 140 psi both cylinders cold which is a big part of why I bought this motor where-is-as-is.

So, suspecting an air leak or severe carb malfunction, I did the following. Replaced the upper crankshaft oil seal. BTW, no sheared key or other anomaly with the flywheel. Removed and disassemble carbs. Ah ha. Obviously had been recently gone through. Clean as a whistle and everything in order to my eyes. No doubt previous owner looking for same source of problem as I am. Removed intake manifold and reed valve assemblies. All in order and in good condition including gasket. No visible disorder in bottom end of crankcase. Replaced intake manifold gasket with a new one, but used a thin coat of Blue Halomar gasket sealer just to be double sure. Also replaced carb-to-manifold gaskets using gasket sealer. While at it, removed and carefully inspected VRO and hoses. Re-clamped hoses. BTW, oil intake on VRO has been blanked off so the unit is just functioning as a fuel pump.

Following the above work, I double checked synchronization and upon start-up, samey same. Checked ignition timing with light again. Samey same - perfect. So now I go old school approach. Alternately blocked carb intakes with rag. Not the severe impact you would expect. Definitely getting air somewhere downstream of throttle plates (it would appear). Next I take Windex and spray the dickens out of it at any joint or hose coupling that I can think of. Really, just sprayed the heck out of the whole outside of crankcase. My hope was that I would get a stall or hesitation when the Windex found it's way into the assumed air leaking area. No such luck. Samey same.

Putting my thinking cap back on, my current theory is that the lower crankcase seal must be leaking. Of course this will require pulling the power head. Doesn't look like a big deal on this 2 cylinder motor but I have several questions I'd like to pose to the community before I proceed.

Is there anything else you can think of that I might need to check before pulling the power head? I can't imagine that I have a head gasket leak but if I pull the power head, should I just go ahead while it's on the bench and replace the head gasket, exhaust cover gasket and etc.?

Any suggestions will be appreciated. I'll eventually give you feedback as to how they came out. I can only work on this problem in spurts so please be patient for your feedback. Thanks for reading this long winded crying towel.
 

racerone

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What did you torque the flywheel nut to.?-------I doubt any kind of air leak including the bottom seal is the issue here.------Note ----You can NOT find a sheared key with a timing light.-----Concentrate on carburetors / linkages / throttle plates as the issue here.
 

Ed Clark

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Thanks for feedback. When I removed the flywheel to check the underlying parts and replace the upper seal, the key was ok. Upon replacement of the flywheel, I torqued the flywheel nut to 100+ foot pounds per the manual. One of the reasons I wanted to remove the flywheel was to inspect the key and the parts underneath as well as replace the seal. Unfortunately, no change before or after removing and replacing flywheel. Again, timing is on the money.
 

jimmbo

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Perhaps one or both carbs aren't fully closed at idle

When you say "timing is on the money". What is your procedure for checking it?

BTW, severely Retarded Timing is how these engines attain a low idle speed
 

racerone

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Did you set idle timing at some value ?----If so what is that value ??----As stated the timing is retarded after throttle plates are closed to get the desired idle RPM.
 

juno pierrat

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Dec 14, 2013
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if your running on muffs, i find idle between 1100 and 1200 is about right, when in water it will drop to 750 to 900.
if your think'n air leaks have you checked the small fuel lines from the primer to carb?
 

racerone

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Those small fuel lines and fittings have a tiny orifice.-----Can not let enuff air through to make it run at 3000 RPM
 

Ed Clark

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Thanks to all for your input to this point. Your collective remarks have been informative and have caused me to go back to the drawing board for a rethink.

Based on your comments, it looks like I've been barking up the wrong tree. A BIG part of my problem is that I consider myself an accomplished mechanic (I'll bet you've heard that before). However, I have zero experience with manually advanced ignition timing when it's also used to adjust the idle speed. I just couldn't get past the idea that the carbs could provide enough air for a proper idle when the butterfly valves are completely closed. In fact, more than enough air it would appear.

I am a big believer in manuals. However, I have been studiously reading the OEM manual and then promptly deciding that it can't be telling me the whole story. Wrong! Well, partially wrong anyway. (-: Actually, I AM going to slap the OEM manual on one point. They set it up in a monkey-see-monkey-do format for the basic adjustments, provide some pretty sorry photos and give little explanation as to why you're to do what you're to do. They do not discuss the theory of operation (how things are intended to work). I find this particularly irritating and a disservice to those who really want to understand why they are doing what they are doing. Oh, well - let's move on.

In the next few days, I will tango with the motor again. But this time I will be armed with the insight you have generously given. I will definitely provide feedback as to the outcome.

To answer a couple of specific questions from your comments:

I did check for a leak in the small hoses from the primer pump to the carb inlet but found none.

Regarding how I confirmed correct ignition timing: Both throttle plates absolutely confirmed closed. Lower mark on throttle actuation cam aligned with carb linkage roller. This, of course, is the point at which the cam will just start to bear against the roller to open the carb butterflies in operation. Timing at this point confirmed by timing light to be 3 +/- 1 degree BTDC.

Haven't even considered the maximum advance stop adjustment yet but I guarantee you that I will not go out on the water and run the boat at full speed while I try to take a timing reading as recommended by the manual. That's the most unsafe thing I've ever heard of. I watched a YouTube video of a guy doing that just when the foot hit a submerged log! Fortunately, he wasn't hurt but God protects the stupid (sometimes).
 

racerone

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When throttle plates are closed they are NOT REALLY CLOSED.-----Your motor is a 2 stroke and needs a certain amount of fuel ( Or should I say oil ) to keep the motor lubricated.-----The throttle plates are calibrated for that.------If the motor needs to idle slower you retard the timing.------This whole simple concept is missed by many a novice !
 

Ed Clark

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When throttle plates are closed they are NOT REALLY CLOSED.-----Your motor is a 2 stroke and needs a certain amount of fuel ( Or should I say oil ) to keep the motor lubricated.-----The throttle plates are calibrated for that.------If the motor needs to idle slower you retard the timing.------This whole simple concept is missed by many a novice !

Regarding the last sentence, guilty as charged! You can't know how much it pains me to admit that.

So, where I had left the motor adjustments at last writing was the throttle cam lower mark was aligned with the carb linkage roller. The roller was just kissing the throttle cam such that any advance in the throttle cam would begin to open the carb butterflies. At this point in the linkage adjustment, the ignition timing was 3 +/- 1 degree BTDC as specified by my manual. The idle screw was making contact with it's stop. At this point, the motor would run somewhere in excess of 1800 rpm at "idle."

So, I go out and simply adjust the idle screw counter-clockwise 3 turns to obtain around 1100 rpm as suggested when running on muffs. Of course, all I've done is to retard the timing to get the idle I'm looking for.

I'm still not real satisfied with what sounds to me to be a "rough" idle condition. But, no tendency to stall or quit running and starts like a champ. Running on muffs I can't hardly hear properly anyway because of the racket from the exhaust. Also, when I "goose" the throttle under no load it sounds a little "rough" as the engine speeds up as well. I'm using "rough" to mean that it sounds like the carbs are a bit out of balance as if one cylinder is pulling harder than the other. However, there I go theorizing again. It's time to put the engine under load and see what I've really get.

So, I'll take her out for a sea trial in about four days from now. I'll try and remember to do a short video so you can comment on progress. Until then, mates ... and thanks again for your advice.
 

jakedaawg

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Running on muffs to do the link and synch is less than ideal. Either go to the lake or use a big tub.
 

juno pierrat

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will almost guaranty once your in the water your need to raise idle, 1/2 a turn at a time, and wait, then 1/4 turn when its gets close to were you like it. and hears hoping the high speeds runs go well
 

juno pierrat

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also i changed my reeds to Chris Carson Custom Reed Valves, and as advertised they did improve idle and low end power. i did one other mod, but thats up for debate if it improved anything,
 

Ed Clark

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OK, so Memorial Day (yesterday) I was blessed with good weather, a day off and the opportunity to go to the lake for a sea trial of the "new" motor. Air temps were in the high 80's low 90's, light breeze but I'm estimating, a six inch chop out in the main channel. Put in around 19 miles of 10, 20 and 29 mph cruising as well as several acceleration runs etc.

Just to go right to the bottom line, it's not perfect yet but it's getting closer by the minute. A new problem cropped up which I'll touch on in a minute, but it's off topic and I don't want to muddy this thread. For sure, there ain't no air leaks which is what started this thread as you'll remember.

So, everybody who has commented on this issue has given good advice and I listened, believe me. The sea trial also very much confirmed the following comments as being spot on accurate:

"Running on muffs to do the link and synch is less than ideal. Either go to the lake or use a big tub."

"will almost guaranty once your in the water your need to raise idle, 1/2 a turn at a time, and wait, then 1/4 turn when its gets close to were you like it. and hears hoping the high speeds runs go well"

Other than the new problem, really the only thing I'm not terribly happy about right now is the "lope" and inconsistency in the idle. I'm guessing it's characteristic of this range of models during the time period of the build. I'm incredulous that the pilot air orifice is fixed with no screw-type adjustment. I strongly feel that if I could get my hands on a pilot mixture screw, I could smooth that baby right out. Alas, we'll never know. At least I won't. Before I go to the reed solution, I might just pony up for a couple of sets bigger and smaller of the fixed orifices to give them a try. But, at $7 a pop, maybe I won't either.

OK, so what new problem cropped up on the sea trial? Primer bulb inexplicably "going flat" with resultant fuel starvation. And not consistently, although seems to hold up better at higher speeds than lower. I know there's a bazillion discussions on this elsewhere in the Forum so I think it's best not to muddy this thread with that topic.

Thanks again to all of you for your suggestions. I'm on the water now and probably wouldn't have been without your help.
 

racerone

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Facts-----Bulb going flat means a fuel restriction or lack of venting between the bulb and fuel tank.----------The " lope " is not typical of the design during the period of the build.----Perhaps there is something wrong , and trouble shooting needs to be done.
 
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