VP 5.7 Gi-J three or 4 sparks only

Aerodyna

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Wondering if anyone has an idea and can help with a Volvo Penta gas inboard 5.7 Gi-J multiport FI that refuses to start due to lack of continuous spark? Scanned it and scoped it. Symptoms are during cranking only three or four spark events occur initially and then none. However will run rough with cam sensor unplugged. Can see initial three or four sparks only, visually and also confirmed ICM signal failure with scope when cam signal present. With cam sensor unplugged spark will continue during cranking. Three channels monitored with scope. Crank signal, Cam signal and ICM. Crank sensor replaced for the heck of it - no change. Coil and ICM replaced - no change. cam and crank sensor scope signals are showing clean and consistent 0-4.5 v highs and lows however....I deduced that it should have a 4x crank reluctor installed and I'm only getting four equally spaced high / low 0-4.5v signals for each revolution of the 1x cam signal (one high and one low). One revolution of the cam should be two revolutions of the crank therefore should I not see 8 spikes of the crank signal over that time instead of four? The odd thing is that both cam and crank signals seem to be quite clean, consistent and correct voltage ranges (decent square waveform). Does anyone know if this ecm uses the GM ignition bypass circuitry during start phase? Scope back probed at ecm & low pass filter off. This engine was a running engine not so long ago.
Thanks in advance
 

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dubs283

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Kinda curious you mention some pretty technical data and advanced troubleshooting steps with diagnostic equipment but make no mention of replacing the cap/rotor, plugs, wires, etc...

I think first you need to ensure you have a solid ground connection for all harness/battery connections.

Once I had a similar issue with a mefi 6 or 7 controller, flat cap GM with cam/ignition sensor in the distributor. Went through a very similar issue you are experiencing and found the oil pressure sensor/switch assy shares either the same 5 volt ref or ground as the sensor in the distributor. Can't recall which it is though, 5 volt ref or ground, nor do i recall if simply unplugging the oil sensor got the engine running (with an oil pressure fault, obviously). In any case, good luck and keep us posted
 

alldodge

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Don't know which ECM is in a GI-J but a motor serial number might help

Unable to answer seeing only 4 instead of 8 spikes, but the motor was running and now it isn't so don't see it as a reluctor wheel issue.

Have you scanned the motor for codes?
 

Aerodyna

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Thank you guys for your replies, the only persistent codes during scan were trim voltage too high (the leg trim sender has its wires disconnected) and buzzer circuit open. engine SN is 4012227089. The strange thing is the ECM logic in this case which allows the ignition trigger output to the ICM to work continuously when a cam sensor signal is not present (even if another cam sensor is plugged in alongside distributor it continues to spark) as long as there is no cam reluctor signal coming back to ECM, as soon as the cam signal is present the anomaly of 3 or 4 initial sparks and then none after that with continued cranking occurs. I read the thread about the 3x reluctor wheel being installed where a 4x should be (Mattsomething) who struggled with similar spark symptoms and cam sensor effects.....in that thread an obvious inappropriate (for his engine type) crank signal led to similar observations in so far as the spark goes. In Matts case he had a new engine build with the wrong reluctor installed, in my case this is not a new engine build. The only similarity with Matt is that I seem to have an inappropriate crank signal (half the number of peaks that I should see relative to one full cycle of cam signal). I'm wondering if the sensor is too close to the reluctor (needs shimming) and perhaps the front main bearing is a little sloppy coupled with the alternating crank loads imposed by the front cylinders causing a consistent yet messed up signal that misses every other slot on the reluctor.....just a theory....those 4x reluctors dont look like the slots are very deep, is it possible that the sensor sees metal when it should not due to lack of concentric proximity / air gap? Going way out on a limb here to try and avoid blaming the ECM. My mechanic friend has DMMed the 5v reference and associated grounds and done extensive continuity / resistance measurements of the signal wiring in the harness and can not find anything there.
Thanks again for your input....and yes we will look at the oil PX signal also.WaveForm.jpg
 
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muc

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"Does anyone know if this ecm uses the GM ignition bypass circuitry during start phase?"
Not sure what your referring to? Like the EST ignition on MEFI engines?

I can't help with the screenshot of the scope, never used a scope on these engines. But the waveform diagram you show in 2nd post is very close to what is printed in the VP classroom study guide.

"J" model year had many changes for earlier and later years. Also there is an early J and late J break. This can lead to misdiagnosis. The only way I know to be sure is to see what is being output on the scan tool. Are you seeing DTCs or SPN/FMIs?

You should be setting more faults. This engine shouldn't run with the CMP disconnected. And should set faults if you try.

The camshaft position sensor is used by the ECM to identify which piston is coming to TDC (top dead center). It is required to start all EGC engines.
If the CMP signal is lost before the engine is cranked, a “no start” or a “start and stall” condition will exist. If the CMP input is lost after a 4.3, 5.0 or 5.7L engine is running, the engine will continue to run until the key is turned off. It will then not restart.

I recommend you get a copy of EGC diagnostics manual #7749393 and repair the 2 faults you have, then continue with troubleshooting.
 

Aerodyna

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"Does anyone know if this ecm uses the GM ignition bypass circuitry during start phase?"
Not sure what your referring to? Like the EST ignition on MEFI engines?

I can't help with the screenshot of the scope, never used a scope on these engines. But the waveform diagram you show in 2nd post is very close to what is printed in the VP classroom study guide.

"J" model year had many changes for earlier and later years. Also there is an early J and late J break. This can lead to misdiagnosis. The only way I know to be sure is to see what is being output on the scan tool. Are you seeing DTCs or SPN/FMIs?

You should be setting more faults. This engine shouldn't run with the CMP disconnected. And should set faults if you try.

The camshaft position sensor is used by the ECM to identify which piston is coming to TDC (top dead center). It is required to start all EGC engines.
If the CMP signal is lost before the engine is cranked, a “no start” or a “start and stall” condition will exist. If the CMP input is lost after a 4.3, 5.0 or 5.7L engine is running, the engine will continue to run until the key is turned off. It will then not restart.

I recommend you get a copy of EGC diagnostics manual #7749393 and repair the 2 faults you have, then continue with troubleshooting.
Thank you Muc,
The ignition bypass I refer to is where the ckp signal goes direct to the icm during initial crank and the icm directly fires the primary coil circuit, then as the ecm sees the ckp it takes over signaling the icm to trigger spark appropriately.

We are seeing the DTC's mentioned in my post using the Jaltest product for scanning.

I have no idea why our engine runs (spark continues) only with the cmp signal missing. (limp home mode)?. It does not run well under this condition but it will not start or run at all with cmp (as the cmp signals presence coincides with spark loss for some weird reason).

Anyhow thanks for your generous input here, not sure how the open buzzer and the trim high voltage dtc's could have such a crippling effect but perhaps that is the case. It seems strange (to me) that there is such dependency on all these 5 volt sensor circuits with small wires in a salt water corrosive environment. I come from the age of hand crank diesel engines with no electrical system at all, boats with no batteries, coal oil lanterns etc... and amazingly these engines provided reliable efficient propulsion! I'm not so sure all this integrated silicon chip and software logic technology is in anyway near equal in amazement, form or function.
Apologies for my digression
will post more as this develops, thanks again for your input.
Cheers
 

alldodge

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Does the 5V Ref stay exactly at 5V, including before and after the cmp is connected/disconnected?
 

Aerodyna

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Does the 5V Ref stay exactly at 5V, including before and after the cmp is connected/disconnected?
Good question....will find out and get back to you on that, but yes I do believe our scan software showed it at 5. But should double check that under both conditions.
 

muc

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You’re welcome, happy to help when I can.

I’m not aware of ignition bypass on any Volvo EGC engine. Yours doesn’t have it.



I have some concerns about using the Jaltest software. It hasn’t received Volvo Penta approval here in North America. I’m pretty sure your engine should be outputting codes in the SPN/FMI format. But I understand that a person needs to work with what they have available. Are you seeing any freeze frame data with the fault codes? Are they listed as “active” or “previously active”?



I don’t know why the engine will run with the CMP disconnected. You should only get spark for about 4 revolutions and then no spark/fuel. There is no limp mode on this engine. The only strategy available is power derate, that should limit RPMs to about 2500. But you maybe able to use this to watch the scan tool for any “shifting” sensor values.



I have a couple of reasons for recommending repairing your 2 fault codes before more troubleshooting. First is that this is what any trained technician will do unless they are 100% sure the codes will have no effect, and it’s what all the factories recommend. Second is because I’ve been burned by this before. An open warning buzzer can cause a “small” derate to become a “big” derate. When I asked Tech support why this isn’t listed in any of the diagnostic manuals? I was told that sometimes this strategy is included in the software to try to protect the engine from a customer that is unaware there is a problem. Also “you didn’t hear the buzzer during key on, why did you start the engine without correcting a known problem?” I don’t know if your ECM has this programming.

The trim code can cause this on some products. The ECM will not allow the engine to start if it is trimmed up too far. I’ve never seen this on a product as old as yours, just newer outboards. But it is another example of the manufacture trying to save their engine from unaware operators. Also don’t worry about the trim code if you don’t have an analog trim gauge.

While we are on the subject of trim, read this and if you don’t have the 120 Ohm resistor. I recommend you contact your Volvo dealer and order the kit to add it.





Mid-year of the –J model engines, a 120 Ohm resistor was added to the engine

harness in the 5V Ref #1 circuit leg feeding the trim sensor. This resistor was added to

protect the 5V Ref #1 circuit from being shorted to ground by a faulty trim sensor. It

looks like a 2 wire connector and is taped to the engine harness near the fuse box. If

the trim sensor shorts the 5VRef #1 to ground on engines that don’t have this resistor,

the engine will shutdown due to loss of the CKP and CMP sensors.




Is this the procedure you used when checking the CMP?



The only good method for validating CMP input is to: 1st). Disconnect the CMP sensor
connector and measure the 5V reference 1 voltage to a good ground (ground stud). 2nd). Ensure that there is the same voltage between the 5V reference 1 and sensor return #1 at the CMP connector. 3rd). Check the signal wire and ensure that it has continuity from one end to the other and is not shorted to any ground (power ground, sensor return #1 or sensor return #2). 4th). Then check for a CMP signal at the ECM (pin 23) with either an Oscilloscope, a DC Hertz meter or a good AC voltmeter while cranking the engine with the CKP (crankshaft position) sensor disconnected. Having the CKP sensor disconnected prevents the ECM from firing any ignition coils and any fuel injectors.



I would be interest to know if the distributor has ever been moved on this engine? Is Cam Retard reading between 12° - 15°?



I too am old enough to remember to days of mechanical fuel injection. I still have the tape measure Deutz Diesel gave me to time their engines. Did you know that some of their engines didn’t have a head gasket? Those darn Germans were that good at machining the block and head they didn’t need one!

But I also remember the stink and poor fuel economy, the fuel sheen on the water and the CO that they produced. I don’t miss that or the pollution.

I totally get the people that wish for the “good old days” but I like the indoor plumbing and the reliable engines modern technology has given us.

People like to complain about the new engines with catalytic converters on them. But those engines are happy to tell me what cylinder has the misfire. All I need to do is ask.



You don’t mention what troubleshooting you have done so far. Have you done the basics? Compression, fuel pressure and visual inspection?

EDIT: after reading this, most of my books list this engine as having an 24X reluctor on the crank. But this engine being near the end of the non cat engines I don't know for sure. Either way I wouldn't be worried about it being to close to the reluctor, never heard that to be a problem.
And remember the ECM must see at least 4 revolutions to set a code.
 
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Aerodyna

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Thanks again Muc,
You have generously offered up some very valuable information, thank you again! Will be doing some more work on this boat hopefully in a week or so. I've noted all your points and will be sure to offer up more detail on the forum soon.
No I hadn't any idea about the lack of need for head gaskets on those engines....unreal!
AJ
 

Aerodyna

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To all those that helped on the forum - Thank you for your valuable help. This boat got relegated to the back of the line however it is now fixed. So what was it? The initial troubleshooting found a bad 5v reference ground (this turned out to be the only problem) HOWEVER at the time the mechanic was repairing the bad ground wire he was made aware that there was a brand new crank position sensor in a package on the dash, apparently someone prior had figured that this needed to be replaced....so without first testing the results following the ground wire repair we went ahead and threw in the brand new sensor as well......this was the beginning of this long story. Finally after pulling much hair out it was decided to put the original crank sensor back in and whalla! Runs perfectly. The brand new sensors sensitivity was way too low to read the reluctor properly. Moral of the story - don't do too many things before testing the results, lest you introduce another problem that wasn't there before!
Cheers
 

alldodge

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Good deal, one of Muc guiding principles, don't replace parts till you know something "is" bad
 

QBhoy

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I’d have bet money on this being a battery issue. Was that replaced by any chance ? Next would be the diz cap.
 

muc

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@Aerodyna Thank you for posting the resolution! And of course I'm glad you got it sorted out.

A bad CKP out of the box from Volvo is very rare. Aftermarket not so rare.
Was this a OEM part?
 

Donald0039

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@Aerodyna Thank you for posting the resolution! And of course I'm glad you got it sorted out.

A bad CKP out of the box from Volvo is very rare. Aftermarket not so rare.
Was this a OEM part?
I agree. The one that did not work properly was probably aftermarket.
 
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