1990 Force 120HP no spark NEW stator tests 0.5V between sets open resistance this is crazy HELP

G

gica

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So I took it out and motor running great I got to the destination 12 miles later and turn off the motor fished then when tried to start it was not doing it at first but then it did it and I moved spots. After trying to start again it just never did. No spark on any cyls. Tried the rectifier disconnect of the 2 yellows from the stator and nothing also removed the stop wires from the box. I got home and tested per schematics from CDI and 0.5v between 1/2 and 3/4 stator. The stator is one month old and was used 3 times. Tested the trigger and got 48ohms between the pairs which is good. Did not test the voltages on the trigger.
I notice that the number 2 coil wire was split exposing metal. I got 2 coils already.
I already bought a stator.
What the heck can cause the stator to die being new and all?!!
 
dingbat

dingbat

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gica said:
So I took it out and motor running great I got to the destination 12 miles later and turn off the motor fished then when tried to start it was not doing it at first but then it did it and I moved spots. After trying to start again it just never did. No spark on any cyls. Tried the rectifier disconnect of the 2 yellows from the stator and nothing also removed the stop wires from the box. I got home and tested per schematics from CDI and 0.5v between 1/2 and 3/4 stator. The stator is one month old and was used 3 times. Tested the trigger and got 48ohms between the pairs which is good. Did not test the voltages on the trigger.
I notice that the number 2 coil wire was split exposing metal. I got 2 coils already.
I already bought a stator.
What the heck can cause the stator to die being new and all?!!
Click to expand...
Stators are pretty robust. They typically fail from over voltage situations related to failed/failing voltage regulators and or battery related issues

What took out the stator the first time that it needed replaced?
Did you test the rectifier and battery functions prior to replacing the stator?
 
G

gica

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dingbat said:
Stators are pretty robust. They typically fail from over voltage situations related to failed/failing voltage regulators and or battery related issues

What took out the stator the first time that it needed replaced?
Did you test the rectifier and battery functions prior to replacing the stator?
Click to expand...
The first stator is not broken I just decided to get a CDI one. I did that on the other outboard since there are twins on this boat. I have an AGM and a deep cycle on this one linked with a Sea 7650 Add-A-Battery System with ACR and Battery Switch. It actually read pretty good on the Voltage gauge up to 14.1v at speed. The other motor goes up to 16v at speed. This motor was what I considered stable from this perspective. I was surprised to have this happen.
I just tested voltage to ground for the brown/blues and brown/yellows and its 3.5V way above less than 2v that the CDI website specifies.
I am not sure if the batteries are the cause. Or one of the coils had the input power wire metal exposed and maybe it sparked. Don't know but it didn't give any symptoms.
 
G

gica

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dingbat said:
Stators are pretty robust. They typically fail from over voltage situations related to failed/failing voltage regulators and or battery related issues

What took out the stator the first time that it needed replaced?
Did you test the rectifier and battery functions prior to replacing the stator?
Click to expand...
This is a link to the 2 videos of the batteries set ups listed as the Failed Stator System and the Good Stator System. The starboard is the one that still works but it shows 16v on the Voltage meter at the helm. The Port side is where the stator failed and it showed normal reading. Again, after I diagnosed it, I found a coil with the main wire cracked and the metal exposed at the base. Got 2 coils coming up. I also bought another CDI stator.
I need to resolve this, so I don't have to keep buying failed parts.
Starboard Side has a Marine Stating Battery and a Lithium Battery for the Accessories.
Port Side has an AGM for starting and a Deep Cycle for accessories. I probably need a regular starting battery instead of the AGM.
All go through Sea 7650 Add-A-Battery System with ACR and Battery Switch
Looking for a starting Battery

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com www.dropbox.com
 
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R

racerone

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These motors sure are causing you a lot of issues.-----Perhaps time for other motors.
 
G

gica

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racerone said:
These motors sure are causing you a lot of issues.-----Perhaps time for other motors.
Click to expand...
They are fully rebuilt and the problems seem to be from charging or broken wires. I am sure the stator broke because of something I added to the system, maybe battery maybe rectifier maybe the Bluesea ACR switching system.
As I understand the charging stator delivers 7amps and the original rectifier doesn't have a regulator, battery does that. So buying the cheap square 5 or 6 wire ones from China on Amazon they don't really last because of cheap parts inside or non compatibility.
So I want to make sure I do the right thing with the charging system and avoid this issue.
Buying new engines right now when I learned them pretty good is a waste of a lot of money. Buying used could also bring problems and more money spent. At this point I need to fix the few issues that I overlooked.
Let me know if you can help on my questions. Thanks in advance
 
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K

kd4pbs

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I'd make it simple and add enough high current diodes between the charging system's output and the system to drop the voltage to whatever level the system wants. Each diode will typically give you around .6 or so volts dropped. If you use half of a full-wave bridge rectifier, that would allow you to select between one or two series diodes to drop the voltage. They are usually stud mountable too for ease of installation and heat sinking. You can stack as many as you need to get the needed drop. 50A rated devices are not uncommon or expensive.
I've never been a fan of unregulated PM generators dating back to the loathing of that kind of charging system on my first bike purchased new; a 1974 Honda SL100. It would overcharge the battery when trail riding, and with the lights on, would drain the battery unless the RPMs were maintained high. I was too young to know how to fix it at the time.
 
G

gica

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kd4pbs said:
I'd make it simple and add enough high current diodes between the charging system's output and the system to drop the voltage to whatever level the system wants. Each diode will typically give you around .6 or so volts dropped. If you use half of a full-wave bridge rectifier, that would allow you to select between one or two series diodes to drop the voltage. They are usually stud mountable too for ease of installation and heat sinking. You can stack as many as you need to get the needed drop. 50A rated devices are not uncommon or expensive.
I've never been a fan of unregulated PM generators dating back to the loathing of that kind of charging system on my first bike purchased new; a 1974 Honda SL100. It would overcharge the battery when trail riding, and with the lights on, would drain the battery unless the RPMs were maintained high. I was too young to know how to fix it at the time.
Click to expand...
Do you have an example of these? I do understand diodes, and this would be necessary on my other motor that stays at 16.5v and bridge rectifiers I know from my power supplies repairs. But for outboard and saltwater environments you must be suggesting that there are already made to use in series. Also keep in mind that this is a CDI stator and which I have no clue if it maintains the 7A output as the original, and having 2 batteries of obviously the wrong kind even though I am using the Sea 7650 Add-A-Battery System with ACR and Battery Switch are still causing issues for the stator where it craps out on me out of the blue?!! Let me know what you suggest you obviously know a bit about electronics and maybe you can suggest a fix to incorporate the stator from CDI and a rectifier with the addons, or straight 50A rated device you mentioned.
Thanks in advance.
 
G

gica

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Ok I opened up the flywheel and it seems on the back side I don't know what it's called but there are metal strips stacked together and some were pulled off and they broke the trigger housing, and I guess the stator is also not good anymore even though there is no physical damage to it.
Can the stator and triggers be tested off the motor?
I already got another used CDI stator it measures 300 ohms between lines.
It should be good but the trigger is done. That thing is so expensive I so it for 400 to 500 new.
I do have 2 older triggers that all measure 53 to 55 ohms between each pair and there are 8 of them.
Below is the Dropbox with the damaged pictures. I could not load it here straight.

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com www.dropbox.com
 
N

Nordin

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That inner magnet/laminated core for the triggers does not looks good.
You have to fix that otherwise it will chew up the trigger assembly again.
Best is to change the flywheel, in my opinion hard to fix that magnet/laminated core in that flywheel.
 
K

kd4pbs

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gica said:
Do you have an example of these? I do understand diodes, and this would be necessary on my other motor that stays at 16.5v and bridge rectifiers I know from my power supplies repairs. But for outboard and saltwater environments you must be suggesting that there are already made to use in series. Also keep in mind that this is a CDI stator and which I have no clue if it maintains the 7A output as the original, and having 2 batteries of obviously the wrong kind even though I am using the Sea 7650 Add-A-Battery System with ACR and Battery Switch are still causing issues for the stator where it craps out on me out of the blue?!! Let me know what you suggest you obviously know a bit about electronics and maybe you can suggest a fix to incorporate the stator from CDI and a rectifier with the addons, or straight 50A rated device you mentioned.
Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...
A bridge rectifier is four diodes total. Look at a schematic of one and you'll see that it's simply two strings of two, connected anode to cathode. If you have the + output at top, - at bottom, and the two AC inputs on both sides, the two anodes of the "bottom" diodes in the two strings/sides are connected, and the two cathodes of the "top" diodes in the two strings connected.
Now, if that terrible description didn't confuse you, you are an amazing individual! Just look at a bridge rectifier schematic and it will become apparent.
I only suggested using a bridge rectifier because they're super cheap - even in the high-current flavor (50A or more), can easily be had with heavy duty spade lug connections, and have a nice hole in the middle making it easy to mount to something metal for heatsinking.
In this situation, it can be wired to use either one or two of the diodes contained within, on the same string/side. Each diode will drop around .6 to .7 volts. You can't use all four diodes because, well, electronic reasons ;)
Of course, you don't need to use a bridge rectifier.
How you integrate this to your application would be up to you. Obviously it would have to exist between the charging system output and the battery, separate of the starting circuit. Putting it solely on wherever the bare output of the alternator rectifier, before it connects to anything else is where I'd put it, with the other end of this "voltage dropper" connecting to wherever the output of that rectifier used to connect.
There are other kinds of diodes out there that would lend themselves equally as well to use in this situation. A search engine is your friend here.
Good luck!
 
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gica

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kd4pbs said:
A bridge rectifier is four diodes total. Look at a schematic of one and you'll see that it's simply two strings of two, connected anode to cathode. If you have the + output at top, - at bottom, and the two AC inputs on both sides, the two anodes of the "bottom" diodes in the two strings/sides are connected, and the two cathodes of the "top" diodes in the two strings connected.
Now, if that terrible description didn't confuse you, you are an amazing individual! Just look at a bridge rectifier schematic and it will become apparent.
I only suggested using a bridge rectifier because they're super cheap - even in the high-current flavor (50A or more), can easily be had with heavy duty spade lug connections, and have a nice hole in the middle making it easy to mount to something metal for heatsinking.
In this situation, it can be wired to use either one or two of the diodes contained within, on the same string/side. Each diode will drop around .6 to .7 volts. You can't use all four diodes because, well, electronic reasons ;)
Of course, you don't need to use a bridge rectifier.
How you integrate this to your application would be up to you. Obviously it would have to exist between the charging system output and the battery, separate of the starting circuit. Putting it solely on wherever the bare output of the alternator rectifier, before it connects to anything else is where I'd put it, with the other end of this "voltage dropper" connecting to wherever the output of that rectifier used to connect.
There are other kinds of diodes out there that would lend themselves equally as well to use in this situation. A search engine is your friend here.
Good luck!
Click to expand...


or these higher voltage ones

 
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G

gica

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dingbat said:
Stators are pretty robust. They typically fail from over voltage situations related to failed/failing voltage regulators and or battery related issues

What took out the stator the first time that it needed replaced?
Did you test the rectifier and battery functions prior to replacing the stator?
Click to expand...
I found the problem the flywheel on the bottom center has some stacked up blades. I have no clue why it is that way, but a few got pulled apart and broke the trigger housing and rendered the stator inoperable.
Here are the pictures, maybe you can tell me how to prevent it from happening again.

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com www.dropbox.com
 
dingbat

dingbat

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gica said:
I found the problem the flywheel on the bottom center has some stacked up blades. I have no clue why it is that way, but a few got pulled apart and broke the trigger housing and rendered the stator inoperable.
Here are the pictures, maybe you can tell me how to prevent it from happening again.
Click to expand...
More than likely the result of moisture being wicked into the stack over time.

I would image it would have originally been coated it with some sort of paint or electrical varnish to prevent the ingress of moisture.
 
K

kd4pbs

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gica said:


or these higher voltage ones

Click to expand...
Both are 20A. I'd think your charging system would be capable of more, wouldn't it? Since you're forward biasing the diode, you won't need to worry about the voltage rating. That being written, you'd be hard pressed to find a silicon diode with a peak inverse voltage greater than what you'll see coming from that system.
Edit: Looks like you may have found your problem. Good!
 
G

gica

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kd4pbs said:
Both are 20A. I'd think your charging system would be capable of more, wouldn't it? Since you're forward biasing the diode, you won't need to worry about the voltage rating. That being written, you'd be hard pressed to find a silicon diode with a peak inverse voltage greater than what you'll see coming from that system.
Edit: Looks like you may have found your problem. Good!
Click to expand...
The system is supposed to be 7A on the older stator but I have the newer one from CDI and I forgot to ask them the amperage. But most suggest to get a 20A rectifier.
Yeah the damage was from the flywheel the metal pieces that are stacked together for whatever reason broke off. This has never ever happened, and I never ever read about that. It broke the trigger, and it probably shorted the stator.
 
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