Boat values

[gman546]

I have been boat shopping in the Ontario Canada market now for 2 months and here is what i've learned about it. direct points no fluff. I've talked to over 100 sellers in the last 2 months:

1) Fiberglass boat market is down huge, aluminum is up
2) Most sellers are delusional
3) Too many people bought boats high at covid and cant mentally accept selling for their current price. It's a constant game of "no i cant sell to you at that price, i'll be losing too much money" vs "I dont give a damn as the buyer, im not going to be upside down instantly"
4) Alot of the value of fiberglass boats are in the trailer. Deals without a trailer should seriously be 50% less of an offer on your end. If something happens with the boat, there is no fall back to salvage literally anything, plus you will have transport costs.
4) Probably 10:1 people hiding something to people being honest straightforward and sensible
5) If you're buying a 22ft+ boat, you're the one with 100% of the leverage. Usually the seller is really wanting you to bail them out of their hemmorage situation. If you don't use a big boat, it eats you alive.
6) The value of buying a boat that was on the water this season is huge.
7) If buying a sterndrive that has sat for a year, be very ready to dump 1500+ into maintenence. If its carbed, possibly more.
8) JD power values (converted to canadian) are mostly right but the trailers are never valued in right. a tandem trailer should add like 4K
9) This deal is about you, not them. Never over pay. Never pay more than the JD Power boat-only value. You WILL have to exit the boat. Remember that
10) For sterndrives, consider maintenence intervals on bellows and gimble bearing. The outdrive is a huge component and if they say something like it needs an impeller, just remember that you would always do the seals with that, so price that in.
11) Get service records. The value of seeing something on a sterndrive engine like "Gear oil is mikly" can tip you off about water getting past seals, and potentially things like bent prop shafts, resulting in knowing it needs a lower unit, allowing you to shave that off your offer.
12) Don't pay for your idea of the experience you will have, pay for the condition of the boat.
13) Boats 20+ years old, current condition is way more important than what kind of boat it nessisarily is.

 

[tpenfield]

This is amazingly valuable information. I read that many Sea Rays switched to FRP stringers 2004 and forward.

I would check the source of information regarding boat construction. There is lots of mis-interpretation and mis-information about boat construction.

Many folks mis-interpret ‘composite’ to mean fiberglass, whereas it actually means a combination of materials.

 

[Scott Danforth]

Many folks mis-interpret ‘composite’ to mean fiberglass, whereas it actually means a combination of materials.

Plywood is a composite of wood laminate and glue

Foam and fiberglass is a composite of polyurethane resins and glass fibers

An aluminum boat transom of wood and aluminum is a composite

Do not confuse marketing buzzwords with construction methods

Today's stringer tubs slapped together with methacrylate still have a finite design life

 

[tpenfield]

Here are a few photos from a Sea Ray factory tour of about 7 years ago (2018 ish) . . . Still using wood. Looks like a mid-size Sundancer hull . . .
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Stringer & bulkhead grid

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Hull layup . . .

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I think you will find something similar on the other boats you are considering.

So, be sure what the boat is made of . . . not just from what you read somewhere. Verify from factory sources (product brochures, factory videos, etc.).

 

[tpenfield]

Here are a few from the Formula 2011 plant tour . . .
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I think you will find that in the mid-2000's boat companies changed over to rot resistant plywood (as mentioned), and then in the 2010's started converting to foam/fiberglass stringer grids and other synthetic materials with some of their newer models, etc.

 

[Scott Danforth]

Hey Ted, even your Cruisers has Balsa in the deck and cockpit

 

[tpenfield]

Hey Ted, even your Cruisers has Balsa in the deck and cockpit

I know the transom is foam core, and it looks like the stringers are as well. I think I'll know more as I cut into things (swim deck bottom, etc.)

The bulkheads are plywood.

 

[Boaterdan278michigan]

I have been boat shopping in the Ontario Canada market now for 2 months and here is what i've learned about it. direct points no fluff. I've talked to over 100 sellers in the last 2 months:

1) Fiberglass boat market is down huge, aluminum is up
2) Most sellers are delusional
3) Too many people bought boats high at covid and cant mentally accept selling for their current price. It's a constant game of "no i cant sell to you at that price, i'll be losing too much money" vs "I dont give a damn as the buyer, im not going to be upside down instantly"
4) Alot of the value of fiberglass boats are in the trailer. Deals without a trailer should seriously be 50% less of an offer on your end. If something happens with the boat, there is no fall back to salvage literally anything, plus you will have transport costs.
4) Probably 10:1 people hiding something to people being honest straightforward and sensible
5) If you're buying a 22ft+ boat, you're the one with 100% of the leverage. Usually the seller is really wanting you to bail them out of their hemmorage situation. If you don't use a big boat, it eats you alive.
6) The value of buying a boat that was on the water this season is huge.
7) If buying a sterndrive that has sat for a year, be very ready to dump 1500+ into maintenence. If its carbed, possibly more.
8) JD power values (converted to canadian) are mostly right but the trailers are never valued in right. a tandem trailer should add like 4K
9) This deal is about you, not them. Never over pay. Never pay more than the JD Power boat-only value. You WILL have to exit the boat. Remember that
10) For sterndrives, consider maintenence intervals on bellows and gimble bearing. The outdrive is a huge component and if they say something like it needs an impeller, just remember that you would always do the seals with that, so price that in.
11) Get service records. The value of seeing something on a sterndrive engine like "Gear oil is mikly" can tip you off about water getting past seals, and potentially things like bent prop shafts, resulting in knowing it needs a lower unit, allowing you to shave that off your offer.
12) Don't pay for your idea of the experience you will have, pay for the condition of the boat.
13) Boats 20+ years old, current condition is way more important than what kind of boat it nessisarily is.

Thank you for sharing. These are all valid points. Sellers are in denial or delusional, unfortunately we will need to deal with it. I'm looking for a specific 'freshwater only' boat, that eliminates roughly 70% of the available boats. I want outdrives in a size that's typically fitted with inboards, that eliminates 60% more, down to 18%. 50% of the remaining boats are filthy and abused. So I'm down to 9% or less of available boats. Because I'm in mid Michigan, these boats are scattered anywhere up to 500 miles away. Lots of potential road trips.

 

[redneck joe]

Question, why outdrives over inboards?

 

[Boaterdan278michigan]

Here are a few from the Formula 2011 plant tour . . .
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View attachment 413416
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View attachment 413415
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View attachment 413414
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I think you will find that in the mid-2000's boat companies changed over to rot resistant plywood (as mentioned), and then in the 2010's started converting to foam/fiberglass stringer grids and other synthetic materials with some of their newer models, etc.

You have access to some real interesting facts and documentation. Is the information accumulated from past purchases or vocation?

 

[tpenfield]

You have access to some real interesting facts and documentation. Is the information accumulated from past purchases or vocation?

It is all out there on the Internet . . .

BoatTrader and Yachtworld for asking prices
Youtube for factory tour videos

However, with each boat purchase, I learned a bunch about how boats are made, since I had to fix rot in my first 2 powerboats.

My current boat is much newer and did not have the same sorts of issues.

 

[Boaterdan278michigan]

Question, why outdrives over inboards?

We boat in Lake Michigan and inland lakes accessible from it. One of our favorite activities is anchoring in knee deep water, then going ashore and walking the beach. We come in shallow enough where boat wake or waves can make the stern hit sand. We don't want to bring a dingy with unless we are traveling. Also, and equally important, stern drive boats have much better access to the engines. V-drives push the engines so far forward that there is no room in the engine compartment.

 

[tpenfield]

We boat in Lake Michigan and inland lakes accessible from it. One of our favorite activities is anchoring in knee deep water, then going ashore and walking the beach. We come in shallow enough where boat wake or waves can make the stern hit sand. We don't want to bring a dingy with unless we are traveling. Also, and equally important, stern drive boats have much better access to the engines. V-drives push the engines so far forward that there is no room in the engine compartment.

FWIW - I have found as many issues with 'fresh water' boats as 'salt water' boats, just different issues. Mostly hull blisters and galvanic corrosion (due to neglect) with fresh water. Salt water boat issues are more engine related . . . raw water cooling is a definite show stopper (having owned a boat as such).

Since you are in the Great Lakes area, many coastal boats are probably too far away and not worth the travel & transport. So, it does shrink the pool of eligible boats.

The market has definitely gotten soft vs. 4-5 years ago. So, time is on your side and you can wait for opportunities to present themselves.

 

[tpenfield]

50% of the remaining boats are filthy and abused. So I'm down to 9% or less of available boats.

I would not completely dismiss a filthy or 'abused' boat. They can be an opportunity if the price and other factors are favorable.

In my search of 4 years ago, the most local boat was filthy and neglected . . . I looked at the boat on 3 occasions . . . each time the boat was a bit cleaner than before. My take was that the broker was reacting to feedback (from me and perhaps others) and having work done. They sold the boat to another person, only after they had cleaned and repainted the hull/outdrives and replaced some rusty parts on the engines.

Through the course of it all, with cleaning and fixing, along with some price reductions, the boat became acceptable and sold. The person that bought it reached out to me, since he figured that I had looked at it. I offered some advice, which he appreciated.

 

[Boaterdan278michigan]

FWIW - I have found as many issues with 'fresh water' boats as 'salt water' boats, just different issues. Mostly hull blisters and galvanic corrosion (due to neglect) with fresh water. Salt water boat issues are more engine related . . . raw water cooling is a definite show stopper (having owned a boat as such).

Since you are in the Great Lakes area, many coastal boats are probably too far away and not worth the travel & transport. So, it does shrink the pool of eligible boats.

The market has definitely gotten soft vs. 4-5 years ago. So, time is on your side and you can wait for opportunities to present themselves.

We are in a good position. We could use the boat we own for another season. We have no intention of selling our current boat until well after the new boat is purchased. The current boat does not have ac/heat or a windlass. Of course the windlass would be a simple add. Also, ac could be installed but would deprive us of very necessary storage space. Lastly it's an aft cabin boat, we want a queen size forward berth with access from both sides.

 

[tpenfield]

My Admiral tells me that I have to sell my current boat before buying another boat . . . kind of slows things down.

 

[redneck joe]

My Admiral tells me that I have to sell my current boat before buying another boat . . . kind of slows things down.

Get a new wife?

 

[airshot]

My Admiral tells me that I have to sell my current boat before buying another boat . . . kind of slows things down.

That can depend on condition of the boat your trying to sell. Is there any type if demand for the boat your selling? Only once did I ever have a problem selling one of my boats. Nothing was wrong with it, just a slow market, and the boat was not popular even though it was a Starcraft. Took two years to get a fair price and everything was in good condition and worked properly. Never offered a boat that " needed work" for sale, always fixed issues that needed fixed. Again it could be the area your in. For boats in good condition, and do not need a bunch of work, seem to sell well when priced fairly here in the Walleye capital......

 

[gman546]

Thank you for sharing. These are all valid points. Sellers are in denial or delusional, unfortunately we will need to deal with it. I'm looking for a specific 'freshwater only' boat, that eliminates roughly 70% of the available boats. I want outdrives in a size that's typically fitted with inboards, that eliminates 60% more, down to 18%. 50% of the remaining boats are filthy and abused. So I'm down to 9% or less of available boats. Because I'm in mid Michigan, these boats are scattered anywhere up to 500 miles away. Lots of potential road trips.

5.7L engines with alpha outdrives (if you're considering twin powered on a 30ft+) are way cheaper in the end to buy with broken outdrive components and ill tell you why and give you the cheat code regarding these outdrives. It's all about gear ratio and year. 1991 and newer, every different engine displacement type used it's own gear ratio. 5.7L is a 1.47:1 and i beleive its the most common engine you see around these days on 22ft+ sterndrive boats. Prior to 1991, the 5.7Ls were always 1.50:1 ratio. didnt matter if they were the chevy 260 or 350 mag. I often see more complete pre-1991 Alpha One Gen 1 rebuilt drives with a 1.50:1 ratio than anything else. That’s probably because more old engines have failed than the drives that came with them

5.7L engines have a much easier time getting outdrive parts for cheap on facebook/kijiji because of the boats they were on. Lots of cruisers that got scrapped, boats always left in the water etc, negligent owners, covid cruiser buyers without a clue who didnt winterize properly, but salvaged the outdrives.....etc.

4.3L (262 chevy) outdrive parts are way harder to get cheap on marketplace. There aren't as many of them because:

1. Boats with 4.3L were typically either bowriders or twin powered cruisers. So people either trailered them often, or had it on a cruiser that they were forced to dump money to maintain. Way likely to be in better shape, and as a result, not in as many "salvage situations".
2. On bowriders, it was more common to find underpowered 3L engines that used the 1.82:1 ratio. Probably only 1 for every 5 bowriders was equipped with the 4.3L becuase of the options people asked for.

If you were to buy a 5.0L (the 305 chevy), you will not be able to find as many parts as there werent as many placed on boats. This will force you to have to buy new from SEI engineering.

I had to replace a lower end last year on my 4.3L and had a hell of a time finding my gear ratio. had to buy new (aftermarket SEI) for $1250 canadian. I'm looking to buy a 5.7L now that may need a lower end, and I can find an entire rebuilt outdrive (both upper and lower), original Mercury, rebuilt, resealed and vacuum tested for like $900. It's not even comparable. a 5.7L will always be lower maintenence because so many boats had them, and alot of those boats would have been bigger for obvious reasons, and are now salvaged 5 years after covid where people screwed the boats and took the good parts off.

 

[Scott Danforth]

I know the transom is foam core, and it looks like the stringers are as well. I think I'll know more as I cut into things (swim deck bottom, etc.)

The bulkheads are plywood.

My last trip to Cruisers was 6 years ago. All my pics were related to stern doors and bulwark beaches. I remember the lamination building and discussing the balsa core with Grayson