10% alcohol in fuel

[bruceb58]

Re: 10% alcohol in fuel

and will likely commit suicide when E85 is mandatory.

Which will never happen.

As far as the price difference, since E85 has 27% less energy content than gasoline, it needs to be 27% cheaper. If your gasoline cost you $3.25/gallon, the E85 needs to be $0.87 cheaper to break even. Not sure where you come up with $0.40.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: 10% alcohol in fuel

Which will never happen.

As far as the price difference, since E85 has 27% less energy content than gasoline, it needs to be 27% cheaper. If your gasoline cost you $3.25/gallon, the E85 needs to be $0.87 cheaper to break even. Not sure where you come up with $0.40.

Yeah...... less energy ALWAYS means WORSE mileage driving a "Flex" fueled car or truck.


A 2009 FLEX fueled Chev Tahoe exhibited ( highway/city combined) 13mpg with E85 and 17mpg using regular gasoline.

So lets see....using my dimensional analysis abilities.....(which are minimal!!)...........

If gasoline is $3.50, the cost per mile is 3.50/17= 20.6 cents per mile.........

If E85 (@$0.40 LESS) is $3.10 per gallon, the cost per mile is 3.10/13 = 23.8 cents per mile......


Um.........23.8 > 20.6 so. It's cheaper to use regular gasoline at those prices........



This of course does not consider the additional energy needed to produce ethanol

The additional cost of subsidizing the industry......

so I'll just neglect it altogether .......there! I feel better already



I am not seeing a huge advantage in Flex Fueled vehicles....


So I HOPE there'll be NO CHANGE in the current fuel situation!!!




.........

 

[bruceb58]

Re: 10% alcohol in fuel

Plus I hate going to the gas station. If I go to the gas station 4 times a month, I would have to go one more time a month if I used E85...no thanks!

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: 10% alcohol in fuel

I have a 1994 K2500 (3/4T 4x4) diesel Suburban I bought new! It tows my 21'Liberator just fino!

Running unloaded, I get 17-19 MPG.

My brother down there in Kallifornia has a 96 K2500 Surburban with an EFI 454 installed. He gets 13mpg unloaded if he keeps his "foot out of it"!!!!!!! (he used to pull my 21' Four Winns and now pulls a 19' Ski Supreme)

I "shudder" to think what mileage his Sub would get if it was a FLEX fueled 3/4T Suburban!!!

 

[mpdive]

Re: 10% alcohol in fuel

What happened to "time" as being the main problem as you stated before?

You are confusing different types of alcohol. Gas driers typically use Isopropyl which doesn't have the same bad properties as Ethanol.

People that have had problems with phase separation are people that are getting water in their fuel from marinas where the water is in the fuel already there or from water being introduced in liquid form to the fuel. Ethanol getting enough water in it from water vapor in the air to cause phase separation is a myth. If you are a trailer boater and get your fuel from the local auto gas station, your chance of having phase separation is almost zero.

Actually, the introduction of most water into the tank occurs from condensate. Hence the reason I mentioned temp swings. A quarter tank of fuel sitting in a boat with 90 degree days and 50 degree nights stands a good chance of developing condensate. Full tanks are the best prevention. This is the time that you can have one good thing to say about ethanol because it will hold that water in suspension. However, it too is now succeptible to temp swings and will itself phase seperate. It,s a double edged sword. If you have no choice but to run ethanol, then the best thing to do is use the boat frequently to assure the fuel remains fresh. And no I am not confused about alchohol. The package store at the end of my street sells plenty of it.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: 10% alcohol in fuel

A quarter tank of fuel sitting in a boat with 90 degree days and 50 degree nights stands a good chance of developing condensate.

That has been proven to be a big myth.

Curious, how many people that you personally know have had phase seperation in their trailerable boat? How many people on this forum have experienced it? If its as bad as you say, their would be many...but their aren't. Believe me, the sky isn't falling.

Another thing, your google searches which come up with water as being in "suspension" is also incorrect. Look up the term Miscibility for your next google search.

 

[jkust]

Re: 10% alcohol in fuel

Here is my common sensical approach to E10. I'm in Minnesota and we were the first state to be forced into submision with the e10 mandate so have been using it the longest. I will ignore the egregious government interfence in the markeplace as well as the dishonest subsidies and the politics that are almost a must to accompany a conversation about ethanol. I have many types of engines from multiple vehicles, outboards, I/O's, snowmobile's, lawnmowers, snowblower, leafblower, weedwacker, and on and on. Of course then I know a lot of people with all kinds of other vehichles as well using E10. I've yet to ever hear of one single issue tied back to the E10. From ancient outboards to new boats, never an issue. On the other hand I have certainly heard many complaints about e85 and issues tied directly to it in flex fuel vehicles. I would have expected many stories about phase separation from me and every one of my friends considering how much I hear about it. All of our seasons are short. Our boats sit for 9 months at a time, our snowmobiles sit much more as do our lawnmowers and snowblowers. I'd have expected at least one story or complaint by now. My non-scientific, no control group analysis says 10% isn't an issue. I'm betting as the 10% is mandated to 20% then 30%, my story will change.

 

[mpdive]

Re: 10% alcohol in fuel

That has been proven to be a big myth.

Curious, how many people that you personally know have had phase seperation in their trailerable boat? How many people on this forum have experienced it? If its as bad as you say, their would be many...but their aren't. Believe me, the sky isn't falling.

Another thing, your google searches which come up with water as being in "suspension" is also incorrect. Look up the term Miscibility for your next google search.

Well, not worth getting in a pissing match over it. I would like to see where it's been proven a myth since in depth reports and testing have been done on the properties of ethanol. Contact Stabil and ask them about their fuel products and they will openly state that Stabil will not prevent phase separation. Apparently they believe in dragons and trolls that live under the bridge too. Last month my pressure washer didnt want to start which was treated with Stabil. I drained the tank, and yes, it was water. New fuel and it fired right up. Also a 20 percent or 30 percent ethanol content doesn't change the properties of the ethanol but just means it can hold in SUSPENSION (sorry that's what the research people and snake oil people referred to it as) more moisture. The only difference is lack of power due to it's combustion properties. I'll leave you with another myth...."I never winterize my boat and have never had a problem" (heard many times at the marine dealer as they pay a 6,000.00 bill.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: 10% alcohol in fuel

hold in SUSPENSION (sorry that's what the research people and snake oil people referred to it as) more moisture.

Sorry, that's what people who have no idea what SUSPENSION is call it. Water is not suspended in alcohol. Show me your articles where "research" people call it that. They must have zero background in chemistry.

read this:
http://www.yachtsurvey.com/myth_of_condensation_in_fuel_tanks.htm

and this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_(chemistry)

 

[mpdive]

Re: 10% alcohol in fuel

Sorry, that's what people who have no idea what SUSPENSION is call it. Water is not suspended in alcohol. Show me your articles where "research" people call it that. They must have zero background in chemistry.

read this:
http://www.yachtsurvey.com/myth_of_condensation_in_fuel_tanks.htm

and this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_(chemistry)

http://www.daybreakfishing.com/ethanol-fuel.html

Great article
http://www.npnweb.com/ME2/dirmod.as...91&tier=4&id=6E184D9A765649AB9DF4FE348E718D6A

The people at Mercury are being duped too
http://www.marinepartsexpress.com/ethanol.htm

Suspension means just that.....Ethanols ability to retain a portion of water

 

[bruceb58]

Re: 10% alcohol in fuel

http://www.marinepartsexpress.com/ethanol.htm[/url]

Good article. Basically contradicts everything you say previously about adding anything that can solve an ethanol water problem with phase separation which includes your recommendations of using Startron Enzyme and SeaFoam.

 

[Gun Dog]

Re: 10% alcohol in fuel

About a month ago I was talking with the tech department at Serria Marine a Div. of Teleflex about the issue of older rubber gaskets breaking down with exposure to ethanol fuels. They pretty much had the problem solved with with the development of DuPonts Viton rubber. However he said the testing was sufficient to 15% ethanol exposure and inconclusive on amounts above that. He also said they have been dealing with 15% in the Midwest for a while. He was concerned about the move to 20%. By the way, all of Serria's rubber has been Viton for several years.

 

[mpdive]

Re: 10% alcohol in fuel

Good article. Basically contradicts everything you say previously about adding anything that can solve an ethanol water problem with phase separation which includes your recommendations of using Startron Enzyme and SeaFoam.

You dont have to PM me about contradictions. Sea foam in my opinion is an excellent carbon killer and that was my reference to it. See my earlier post's and if I made a claim to Seafoam as far as ethanol cures let me know. Secondly, my choice to use Startron is my own personal ounce of prevention. The research claims to help with phase separation and if it doesn't then I really dont care. I liken it to adding coolant to the water jackets during winterizing even though the block is drained completely. Useless? Maybe, but it makes me feel good. Do I drain the gear oil out every season? You bet even though it looks like I just put it in yesterday. I have zero maintenance problems out of every piece of machine I own (other than an occasional fuel problem) and there is a reason for it. I have an investment that I have no problem maintaining. I wont jump over a dime to pick up a penny. If you feel I have contradicted myself then you are welcome to your opinion. I have no ill feelings towards you and may need your expertise in the future. I just have an opinion.
Best to you.
Mike

 

[mpdive]

Re: 10% alcohol in fuel

About a month ago I was talking with the tech department at Serria Marine a Div. of Teleflex about the issue of older rubber gaskets breaking down with exposure to ethanol fuels. They pretty much had the problem solved with with the development of DuPonts Viton rubber. However he said the testing was sufficient to 15% ethanol exposure and inconclusive on amounts above that. He also said they have been dealing with 15% in the Midwest for a while. He was concerned about the move to 20%. By the way, all of Serria's rubber has been Viton for several years.

I agree with that too Gun Dog. I think the only real scare with degredation is the old fiberglass tanks. SE PA. Close to some of my old fly fishing grounds. Beautiful country.

 

[sdowney717]

Re: 10% alcohol in fuel

I never had trouble till I put some e10 in a 40 year old tank.
first it dissolved all the crud so the gas turned dark brown
then the temperature fell and it phase separated.

The tanks are in my boat and the boat sat unused for about 5 years.

I setup a vacuum pump and jar and sucked all that sludgy alcohol out from the tank bottom.

What bugs me is the extremely tiny amount of water needed to cause a phase separation.
http://www.yachtingmagazine.com/article/Fuel-Alert
only 0.3 % water, 2 teaspoons in a gallon does that.

So what happens if you have phase separated gas and add more e10?

 

[mpdive]

Re: 10% alcohol in fuel

It becomes worse. Adding more E10 to what is already there will cause the ethanol value of 10 to be lowered so it's water retention is also lowered. For a 40 year old tank your probably going to be forced into replacing it. Ethanol loves to eat fiberglass tanks if that's what yours is. If you were able to clean the tank and lines thoroughly, you would be forced into running regular unleaded if it is a fiberglass tank. One of the downfalls of ethanol, but then again, ethanol has to eat too!

 

[sdowney717]

Re: 10% alcohol in fuel

I will never replace those tanks because they are made of monel. copper nickel.
I am thinking now the e10 cleaned them out. Each tank is 150 gallons.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: 10% alcohol in fuel

I never had trouble till I put some e10 in a 40 year old tank.
first it dissolved all the crud so the gas turned dark brown
then the temperature fell and it phase separated.

The tanks are in my boat and the boat sat unused for about 5 years.

I setup a vacuum pump and jar and sucked all that sludgy alcohol out from the tank bottom.

What bugs me is the extremely tiny amount of water needed to cause a phase separation.
http://www.yachtingmagazine.com/article/Fuel-Alert
only 0.3 % water, 2 teaspoons in a gallon does that.

So what happens if you have phase separated gas and add more e10?

Your problem was that you didn't suck ALL of the 5 year old fuel out before adding new fuel.

If you have phase separated gas, you could in theory suck out the phase separated portion and put in new fuel. The main problem is that the remaining fuel has a much reduced octane level because the ethanol is gone.

 

[mpdive]

Re: 10% alcohol in fuel

I will never replace those tanks because they are made of monel. copper nickel.
I am thinking now the e10 cleaned them out. Each tank is 150 gallons.

That's exactly what it did. Extensive cleaning and you'll be good to go with your choice of fuel. Glad to hear they were not fiberglass.

 

[sdowney717]

Re: 10% alcohol in fuel

Your problem was that you didn't suck ALL of the 5 year old fuel out before adding new fuel.

If you have phase separated gas, you could in theory suck out the phase separated portion and put in new fuel.

totally agree, at least I hope it wont phase separate ever again.

here is how I pumped. I used a long copper tube and got it off the bottom.
the jar holds some of the nasty separated sludge and the clear tubing shows it beginning to run clear.
The buckets on far right I decanted the gas off the top and put it back into the tank.