1960 rds - 22 More questions ! ! !

[John the landlubber]

Having checked around in the uk breakers yards, and having chatted to others who have been unsuccesful in locating the wiring harness of the same type as mine in the u.s, i have come to the conclusion that i may have to install a starter circuit in kit form if i am to be able to use the electric start on my 40 hp super seahorse. Although I have a wiring diagram in my seloc manual i confess, it may as well be in french! I have three wires coming from the plug socket you would connect the harness to. One is dark brown, one is blue and the other is either yellow or light brown. Can anyone tell me what these wires are for?<br /><br />Also, where you connect the fuel line & bulb to the engine, there are two connections, what is the top one for?<br /><br />Having checked the free movement of linkages on engine i have a number of questions. for example, on the fast idle adjustment, there doesn,t seem to be much resistance once i turn it anticlockwise of the clicked position. will this move out of adjustment with the vibration of the engine or is it usually quite loose?<br /><br />Also, on the throttle shift system, there are two metal bullet shaped connections on the end of the shaft that turns when you use the Start/ fast lever. The right hand one is connected to a light brown wire. The left hand one is not connected to anything. There are two other wires, both of them black that appear to need reconnecting. They may be black because the engine has been sprayed recently, i am not sure. One of them actually looks to have come off of the left hand bullet shaped thingy. There is also another connector here which is like a horseshoe. I Cannot find any reference to them in the manual. Can somebody please steer my in the right direction. Thanks Guys.

 

[John the landlubber]

Re: 1960 rds - 22 More questions ! ! !

Oh no, things are getting worse! I have been reading the procedure for replacing impeller, which involves removing lower unit. I have posted a question when i first got this engine regarding the inspection hole on the right side of my engine which allows you to see the shift coupler, but nobody responded and i then forgot to ask again. It seems there should be shift rod connector in here, but there is not. there has been some welding done here. Is there any good reason for this or does this mean someone has either lost or damaged these parts and bodged it up. Will i still be able to remove the lower unit or will i have to break this welded connection and get new shafts? I am not sure i want the answers to these questions as i feel they are going to set me back in time and money but what the hell, I wanted to learn, right! Doh!

 

[CATransplant]

Re: 1960 rds - 22 More questions ! ! !

John,<br /><br />Uh-oh! If someone's welded up the shift rod, you're not in for a treat, since you won't be able to get the lower unit off easily. There should be a brass clamp with a rectangular cross-section behind that inspection port. That allows you to separate the shift rod.<br /><br />It's not really very good news. You can release the shift rod from the top, but you have to remove the power head to do so.<br /><br />People have bodged these shift rod connections in many ways. Welding is the worst possible bodge, though. <br /><br />I'm very sorry to hear about this. It's definitely going to cause you considerable grief, I'm afraid. If there were more room in there to work, there might be a way to fix this without removing the powerhead.<br /><br />I'm doing a fix to mine right now. The previous owner partially stripped out the threads on the connector, so it isn't holding very well. What I'm going to do...very carefully...is drill the outer part of the bolt hole to 5/16", grind 1/32" deeper on one side of the upper shift rod, and tap the hole at the back for a 5/16" bolt, rather than the standard 1/4". It's very tight quarters in there, so it's not going to be a pleasant job. But I thank the powers that be that the person didn't weld things up.<br /><br />Maybe Paul Moir will have an idea that will save you time.

 

[John the landlubber]

Re: 1960 rds - 22 More questions ! ! !

Ok, thanks CATransplant, things were going far too well. lol. I figure I might just get a hacksaw blade in to cut the weld ( with luck) but thats gonna mean replacing the two shafts. I take it that will require the head coming off too. The inspection plate itself is actually missing and i believe a gasket is required also.(1 of the screws is sheared off in the hole just for good measure). I still know the location of 2 similar engines (available for spares) or can i get these shafts, cover plate and gasket off the shelf?

 

[Paul Moir]

Re: 1960 rds - 22 More questions ! ! !

I've got no better idea about the shift-rod. You should put it back to original and if the grooves in the shift rods (see the shift connector diagram on page 8-6) have been damaged by the welding they'll need to be replaced. You could possibly file new grooves into the rods, but that will require time and skill to accomplish so I'll leave it to you to decide if it's worthwhile.<br />The shift rod is supported by a little ring cast into the mid-section. So if you were to remove the powerhead, disconnect the bell-crank, and try to pull the lower unit off it would hang up on the ring. I see no alternative except to cut the shift rod at the weld through the window.<br />At this point, a spares engine might be a very good idea. It seems that over in the UK dead outboards are for some reason far dearer than they are here, so I might be wrong about that. Here I would pay up to $75 (Canadian) for a dead engine that size. Although you might get the separate parts for less, I'm betting there's a few other odds and ends you might want. Talk to your junk engine dealer too; he may take back the parts you don't want for a reduced price.<br />Your wiring sounds like it's totally messed up. The two wires coming from the armature plate (the plate that turns as you advance the throttle) is for stopping the engine, and for the vaccum cutout switch. If that cutout switch is not wired up, disasterous results are almost guaranteed. Look at the diagram on page A-20 and place the book sideways so it's right-side-up. Confine your attention to the dashed-out outline of the outboard in the lower left side, since you appear to be missing the rest of it. Now, if you don't have a generator, cross it out and the wiring that's associated with it.<br />Now, make sure you have all the components that are left. Clearly you have the ignition system in the middle, and the starter over on the left. Double check that the safety switch and cutout switch are still present. The cutout switch is attached to the intake manifold by a hose and ought to be easy to find on one of the bypass covers. The safety switch is located just above the fuel pump between the block and the armature plate.<br />For proper operation of the vaccum switch, both must be present. Make sure one of the two armature plate wires (doesn't matter which - one controls the bottom cylinder rather than the top but it's immaterial) connects to the top of the vaccum cutout switch. Also make sure that the wire leading from the base of the vaccum cutout switch to the saftey switch is in place.<br />Utimately you'll want to have four small wires and two heavy starter cables running up to the engine. Moving right to left on the diagram:<br />1) The grey (really blue) wire that connects to the temperature switch on the head<br />2) The white (perhaps yellowed) wire from the base of the cutout switch that provides a ground for the solenoid. This prevents you from cranking the engine if the throttle is set too high.<br />3) The black kill switch/magneto wire from the top of the vaccum cutout switch.<br />4) The other black kill switch/magneto wire from the armature plate (via a bullet connector) which is connected to the first black wire to stop spark and kill the engine. <br /> <br />Clearly you're going to eventually need a junction box with a solenoid in it and such, as well as a keyswitch for the dash and a temperature warning light. Until you have them, don't worry about them. You really don't need any of the electrics for running the engine, other than to have the cutout switch connected properly, and to have the two kill switch/magneto wires isolated and not touching one another.<br /><br />EDIT: Stillfishing's post reminded me of something - the shift rod in the lower unit can only be removed by disassembling the lower unit. So if you go the spare engine route try to find one with a good lower unit to save you the trouble of resealing one.

 

[umblecumbuz]

Re: 1960 rds - 22 More questions ! ! !

Hi John,<br /><br />The shift rod. If some idiot's really welded the two halves together, you also need to ask why. It may be as simple as a stripped thread.<br /><br />You COULD drop the rod as far as poss, then cut it, file a flat on the upper part of the shift rod, drill through the flat, and weld (or glue - it will still work) a nut on the back of the rod. If you then obtain a lower shift rod (make one if there's a simple smithy near you), file a flat to match, drill a clearance hole for a bolt to pass through, you've done it.<br /><br />But that's a lot of work. Why not strip the motor and buy the bits. At least, you'll then know the condition of everything and have confidence in it.

 

[CATransplant]

Re: 1960 rds - 22 More questions ! ! !

As an owner of one of these motors, I've been trying to come up with a reasonable way to cobble together a solution for this stripped or ruined connector. There has to be a solution for this situation that doesn't involve removing the powerhead and disassembling the gearcase. It's not an uncommon problem, since those connectors are forever being stripped out when someone over-torques the clamping screws.<br /><br />I'm going to be able to repair mine...this time, but another time, the situation could be worse.<br /><br />I don't have it figured out...yet...but I will. <br /><br />My thinking so far: I'm sure it's going to involve tubing of some kind which will fit over the two shift rods, and that will allow adjustement of the length.<br /><br />I believe the rods are 1/4" in diameter...in fact, I'm sure of it. Some sort of tubing with a 1/4" inside diameter could substitute for the brass fitting. There are two lengths of these fittings, one for short shaft engines and one that is 5" longer for long shaft engines.<br /><br />If the upper rod could be cut, and it could, with a small cut-off wheel in a Dremel-type tool, the lower end could be removed, with whatever is left of the clamp or however this has been cobbled.<br /><br />If a tube of a decent strength and the right inside diameter were cut to length, with some slop for adjustment (some experimentation would be needed, due to whatever cobbling has taken place on a particular engine.<br /><br />With the lower unit removed, it could be attached to the shift rod using a strong spring clip...through the tube and the lower rod. These are quite sturdy and would hold up under normal shifting loads.<br /><br />Then, with the lower unit in place, the upper rod would slip into this tubing. With careful work to establish the correct neutral position, another hole could be drilled through both the tubing and the rod in the correct position, and another spring clip inserted.<br /><br />The type of clip is similar to what is used on the pin holding the drawbar in a receiver hitch. They're readily available in sizes suitable for this use, and there is room in there for such a clip to have freedom of movement. Since we're working with 1/4 stock on the rods, a 3/32" diameter for the clip would be just right.<br /><br />Since the clip is hardened steel, it would handle the shifting load with no problems, I believe.<br /><br />In any case...that's my thinking to this point. If we can solve this, it will help a LOT of owners of these old outboards, since the same mechanism was used for years.

 

[John the landlubber]

Re: 1960 rds - 22 More questions ! ! !

Right then. Firstly, thanks all. Good sound advice all round. One of the aforementioned cut black wires goes to ground. I think I have now located the safety switch. Is it almost rectangular/elliptical with two screws running horizantally and one bolt coming in from underneath? If so it doesn't have anything connected to it. I have ascertained that one of the cut wires is indeed running to the bottom left hand corner of the vacuum cutout. My understanding so far is that this one should connect to the bolt on the underside of the safety switch. There are also two wires running from the centre of the vacuum cutout, one to the points and one to where the harness connects. This corresponds with the diagram. S what do i need to do with the cut wire that starts by the armature plate and leads to ground?

 

[CATransplant]

Re: 1960 rds - 22 More questions ! ! !

I'm going to let Paul advise you on that wiring, just in case there's a difference from my '58 RDS-20. I don't think there is, but Paul's up on those new-fangled 40hp motors. He's a lot more modern and forward-thinking than I. [grin]

 

[John the landlubber]

Re: 1960 rds - 22 More questions ! ! !

Ha! Bless you both. Ok then, how about this. Bear in mind that I paid £60 for this engine, and also a seized 18hp fasttwin. I see the problem this shift rod is gonna cause and I'm not that keen to strip this baby right down. Next job on my list was to change impeller as motor hasn't been run in at least a year. That is how I suddenly twigged this welding was gonna get me, as i was reading through the manual on procedure for removing lower unit. Luckily, I haven't ordered impeller kit yet. So i'm Thinking, if i can get these wires sorted maybe I should try starting, regardless of impeller. After all, may be this engines gonna have other big problems and i know i'd be happier spending a few quid and a load of time if I know she's gonna run. I know this go's against the normal good practice but do you think maybe in this situation its justified?

 

[CATransplant]

Re: 1960 rds - 22 More questions ! ! !

John,<br /><br />Perhaps you have the right idea. The bodge job was probably done when the impeller was replaced the last time. Perhaps it's time to give it a try, as you say, and see if it's pumping water and whether there are bigger problems. I'd put it in water, of course, over the water intakes, if you're going to do that.<br /><br />I started mine before replacing the impeller, just to make sure it would run and not waste my limited funds. It did. I replaced the impeller, and am quite pleased. <br /><br />You're right about that safety switch. I just looked at mine, and that's it. Its function is to shut the ignition off if there's a high vacuum, as when you are running at high RPM and suddenly close the throttle. It's there for a reason, but I believe that you might just try starting the motor without it, if you like. Keep the RPMs down, of course.<br /><br />The two black wires from under the flywheel should not be grounded. The engine will not run if they are. If you like, you can bodge up a kill switch by taking one of them and rigging a switch that will ground it should it be necessary to quickly shut down the engine. This should not be a permanent fix, but will suffice for a test start.<br /><br />If you do test start, make certain the engine is in neutral by seeing that the propellor turns freely. Also make certain that the throttle is not wide open. I don't know what controls you have for this motor, but that's important. You can look at the throttle butterfly. It should not be wide open (horizontal), but should be closed or almost closed for your test start.<br /><br />Best of luck!