55 HP Chrysler Lost power

[msstring]

Model: 559b8k (1978) Electronic Ignition, Serial # 1160
My motor ran perfect one day and the next day it had no power. I had it to a mechanic and all they can say is that it is electrical and to give up. I am having a hard time accepting that because it does run. If it were electrical I don't think it would even run. It just has no go. I was reading another post where the key was sheared and It sounds similar. I have a timing light but I have never done a boat. Any suggestions? One more note, I do have good compression.

 

[msstring]

Here's an update, I have checked timing and with it in neutral and the throttle in fast idle position it is at 10 degrees before TDC. I haven't gotten a manual yet so don't know where it should be. Also it losses spark as soon as the battery starts to ware down. It seems to have plenty of fuel...

 

[msstring]

Another update, I was able to test timing with it running, it is at 8 BTDC AT 800 RPM AND 17 BTDC at 3000. I don't know if any of this helps tell anything. Any help would be appreciated.

 

[foodfisher]

When you say it has "no go", does that mean it revs up but won't push the boat?= spun prop. Or does that mean it won't increase rpms under load? = check compression in each cylinder. Edit- A good elec. system would allow the engine to run even without a battery, so a bad battery should have no affect on the spark.

 

[wickware]

Is this a 55hp Chrysler and what year? If so, pull the flywheel and check the points. If you need help and do not have a manual, search here it has been discussed many times. There are probably good youtubes online, “how to pull a 55hp Chrysler flywheel”. Good Luck! I’ll watch for your results, reply.

 

[wickware]

Is this a 55hp Chrysler and what year? If so, pull the flywheel and check the points. If you need help and do not have a manual, search here it has been discussed many times. There are probably good youtubes online, “how to pull a 55hp Chrysler flywheel”. Good Luck! I’ll watch for your results, reply.

 

[msstring]

Thank you for the feedback. Wickware, It is a 55HP Chrysler but it has "Electronic Ignition" label on it. Would it have points if that is the case? I will look around for info on pulling the Flywheel, thanks for the YouTube tip. Foodfisher, by "no go" I mean it has no power, it will push the boat but will not get any speed, certainly not to plain. I feel the same way on the spark but it seems that when the battery gets weak it will still run the starter but it won't spark. It seems like the starter is acting as a ground to the magneto. As soon as I charge the batteries a bit I get spark again.

 

[wickware]

[h=2]I’m sorry I missed this info, “55 HP Chrysler Lost power Model: 559b8k (1978) Electronic Ignition, Serial # 1160”.[/h]
I’m not sure how I missed it other than this upgrade has not been friendly to me. Now that I see the info, I’m still not sure if you do not have points since you are using the term magneto.

It’s time to scream for the “Experienced Pros” on this model. Good Luck! From a quick glance, my Clymer is not showing a electronic ignition sys w/o points before the 80s. Can you post pictures from both sides of your engine with the hood/cover/top off? Do you know if that is the original hood/top/cover?

I have not challenged posting attachments yet but I can see it will be different and will try soon.

 

[Frank Acampora]

Timing on all ignition systems should be at 30 degrees advance at wide open throttle, regardless of RPM. This is because timing is strictly mechanical advance with no vacuum assist or retard compensating for RPM. Your measurements at idle and 3000 RPM mean very little and could be relatively correct. Timing at any other throttle position that WOT simply tells you nothing except if it is way off, like 20 degrees retarded at idle.

NOW: it is important to know the ignition type because the 55 was made in a couple of different versions around that year. There was standard magneto ignition, battery and points ignition, Prestolite electronic ignition, and Magna-Power II electronic ignition. It is also important to know if the 55 was a single carb or twin carb model.

If it indeed has the Magna-Power II ignition, then yes, it will be almost futile to repair the ignition as parts are difficult to impossible to find. However, all is not lost as the engine can be converted to the standard Prestolite ignition. IF it is already Prestolite ignition, then all parts are available and/or you can retrofit with a Force ( 2 cylinder) electronic ignition.

Perhaps Nordin will chime in as he knows the model numbers on these engines well.

 

[msstring]

I am not having any luck uploading pics, they show up at first and then when I go back they aren't there anymore.
Will try them here again.

 

[msstring]

Thanks for the info guys! No worries, wickware, you didn't miss it. As I learn more about how this forum works I edited my original post to clean up the description and the title for better searches. As for the term "Magneto" that is only because that is what it says on the motor, not that I really know . I have attached some pics, I hope they come through.

Frank Acampora, it is a twin carb and according to the label on the side of the block it is a MagnaPower II (see pics). So, now, I am hoping to learn more about this conversion. I do like working on motors but I've never been into a boat motor and didn't realize I wanted to learn that much about this one . But hey, I have nothing to lose at this point.

How would I go about getting a WOT timing reading? The testing I was doing Saturday I had it running in neutral in a barrel. I could back it into the water and try to get it if that would help narrow down the trouble shooting. From what I have shared so far are you pretty sure the issue is ignition? Or, is there anything else that would help narrow this down?

Well, after several attempts to upload photos last night it doesn't seem to be working so I am going to try this. This web address will take you to a DropBox folder, there are several pics there that are meaningless but there is not that many and it is easier to just keep them all together.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/lesbhssnwlcmazq/AAAPm_m2kfs1txo-4sIEBB3Xa

Thanks again!

 

[Frank Acampora]

Well, the Magna-Power II ignition system was simply a brilliant idea that was poorly designed and executed. It failed so often that Chrysler offered a retro-fit kit under warranty. Some, however, did outlast the engines but based on past history it is very likely that the ignition has crapped-out.

Unfortunately, outboards do have a habit of detonating and melting pistons so before doing anything else, you really should do a compression test. If compression is high and equal, then yes, the ignition could be the culprit. If you have one or more cylinders with less than 20 PSI, then you have a mechanical problem.

If I remember correctly, the alternator stator/trigger mount is the same as later Force engines so the Prestolite ignition from a later Force 50 should mount right onto the block. I am not certain whether or not you need to change the flywheel.

At any rate, that series engine (55,60,65) was probably the best design to come out of Chrysler and if you like the engine, it is well worth getting it to run again.

To check timing at WOT, you set the control handle to WOT. Remove the plugs and ground them so the engine will not start and the ignition will not be damaged. turn on the ignition key. "Jump" the starter solenoid to crank the engine. Using a timing light with the pick-up set onto the top cylinder, check the timing mark. Timing should be about 28 degrees BTDC at cranking speed. It will advance to 30 when running..

 

[tater76]

The ignition conversion is very simple as Frank stated, and well worth the effort. I have a 1973 55hp that is running 1985 ignition. I purchased a blown motor for $50 for the parts, and it took about an hour to mount up. I think the only thing (if I remember correctly) was that the ignition switch wiring had to be changed just a bit. Again, easy to do, especially with the help from folks on here

 

[msstring]

Thanks guys! I am anxious to try to find some ignition parts. You say "later" Force, is there a year range I should look for? Tater76, I see you are using '85 on a '73, mine appears to be '78, does that still apply? Assuming so, I can start there but would like to know if there is a range to look for maybe a top end where the design changed or something? I didn't check compression myself but the shop that I had it at checked it and said it is good.

 

[foodfisher]

Is that the same shop that told you to give up? A hero of mine once said, "trust but varify".

 

[msstring]

Foodfisher, point taken, I have a compression tester just havent done that myself yet. It ran perfeect the day before it didn't but the next day it was very week. Not missing just no power and wouldn't idle for anything. But, I will check. Anxious to check timing per Frank too.

The one thing that keeps bugging me is that I know I do have spark and "if" it is sparking when it is supposed to then wouldn't that be rule out ignition? Don't missunderstand, I really appreciate the help and am by no means qualified to challenge any of it. Just want to make sure we aren't overlooking something.

I will be away for the rest of the week & weekend so won't be able to get back into it for a bit.

 

[msstring]

Ok, I need your help again I found a motor. '85 50 HP Force Model # 507X5A, Serial 1576. If it means anything the flywheel says Prestolite. Do you know if I can use these ignition parts on my 55HP Chrysler (Model: 559b8k (1978) Electronic Ignition, Serial # 1160)?

I wasn't able to upload a pic but this link will take you to one.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/v7cw8vlxuavcoag/2014-06-16 21.20.33.jpg

I'm counting on you guys, cuz you all told me this will work!

 

[Frank Acampora]

Force 50 engines came in several ignition versions: Magneto, Battery and points, and electronic ignition. That particular engine is battery and points and will not swap onto your engine. It is a completely different block and the ignition will not mount onto your block.

 

[Nordin]

Sorry if I have not chime in but this bloody update of the forum............

SO you seams to have a 55Hp twincarb Chrysler with MAG II ign. As Frank has said the MAG II was a poor system BUT many of them still runs so???

Chrysler offered a retrofit kit in 1978-79 during warrenty and this was the Prestolite system.

To check what system you have, look if the ign.coils are mounted on the head under a cover .If they are, it is the MAG II system not the Prestolite.

Come back with information then I may help you to troubleshot the ign.system.

 

[msstring]

Frank, bummer, I was concerned that might be the case by how different the block looked. But I was hopeful with Presolite printed on the flywheel. That was the chance I took buying it sight unseen knowing it is a parts motor. Hopefully I can part it out and get some of my money back. I was told it did run but a seal is out on the lower unit. So if all else fails maybe I can figure out how to get that fixed.

Nordin, I do indeed have the coils in a box on the head under a cover. I am hoping to spend some quality time with this on Saturday so would be very interested in anything you can point me to. A little recap:

I know I have regular spark on the cylinder closest to the flywheel. After draining my test tank I realized I never did check the other cylinder but I think it ran smoother than if it was missing on one. But, that is the first thing I plan to do Sat.

Frank also told me how to check WOT timing so that is the next thing I plan to do.

It seems to be sparatic, When the problem first started it wouldn't idle for anything. Then I had someone look at it who eventually told me it is electrical and give up, but in the mean time he backed the timing way up to try to get it to start. So, last time I worked on it I had it running in a barrel and set the idle timing at around 8 BTDC then it idled pretty well and for a while would even rev fairly well. But then later I was starting to get a few ignition misses at mid RPM. The misses were ignition because they would show up in my timing light. By then my water tank was getting warm and I didn't want to do more damage so I quit.

During the time in the above paragraph I had disconnected the wire going to the overheat horn (which I can not get to work). I was optimistic that it made a difference for a while, with the better idle noted above. But, then things deteriorated again so I'm not sure that had any effect.

The spark is definitely tied to battery power. When the battery starts to get weak from a lot of cranking it will loose spark completely even though the starter will continue to turn the motor over. As soon as I charge the battery or hook up a jumper I have spark again.

This all started after connecting a depth finder to the ignition switch. Another thing I plan to do is pull the switch out and pull everything off of it except the motor wires. I can't imagine what I would have crossed up there but at this point I don't want to leave any stone unturned.

Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I also plan to try to find a manual to download, any suggestions on that front would be appreciated as well.