55 HP Chrysler Lost power

[Nordin]

Ok, troubleshotning this system is a bit different then others.
Go to outboardignition.com they have a guide for MAG II.
First check for spark at both cyl. Take out the plugs and ground them to the head them run the starter and check for spark.

The MAG II system contains 9 parts CD module, alternator/stator, rectifier/regulator, capacitor , timingring, 2 triggers and 2 ign.coils .All this parts except for the ign.coils are mounted under the flywheel. The alternator/stator and rectifier/regulator is not a part of the ign.system.

If one cyl. not fire the problem can be the CD module, capacitor, trigger or ign.coil.
The guide at outboardignition.com helps you to troubleshot.

(Bloody upgrade. had wrote the hole sequence down THEN serverconnection problems)

Your notice about weaker spark or no spark with weak battery depends on that the flywheel need to spin fast enough to charge the capacitor in the ign.system.

To describe the hole troubleshotsequence here will take alot of time.
Use the guide at outboardignition.com and come back if you do not understand something or have some questions.

EDIT Have read through the hole thread and am I right that the problem occured after you connected a fishfinder to the ign.switch?

The stopcircuit for the engine is the two M terminals at the switch. NOTHING more then the stopcircuit wires shall be connected at the M terminals .If you got 12VDC at the M terminals........ you fried the CD module.
Disconnect the blue and white wire at engine terminal and check with a VOM for voltage at these wires in all switchpositions. In all positions there should be NO voltage.
With the VOM measuring resistence (ohm schale) there should be open circuit in all positions except for the STOP position. In STOP position there shall be continuty between blue and white.

 

[msstring]

Thank you very much Nordin! I did what testing I can, but some of this I don't understand. I have added comments to the steps below. However, in doing this, it seems apparent to me that I have a carburetor problem. I pulled the plugs to do my spark testing and I have good steady spark on both cylinders while cranking in neutral. But, I noticed. The top cylinder sprays an oily mix out of the plug hole while the bottom cylinder blows dry air. I pulled the bowl off the carb and pumped fuel to it, there is fuel there. I don't know where else to go with that, I haven't started looking up carburetor troubleshooting yet. But, I feel I need to address that first because first maybe that is my real issue after all. And, I don't like the idea that that cylinder is running dry lubricated.

I did check compression, both cylinders are at 120#

I was not able to get a WOT timing setting because I have no spark with lower unit engaged. It seems that the starter is taking all of the power to turn the motor and gearbox over. I think all this cranking is taking a toll on my starter.

Below is the ignition trouble shooting I looked at with my comments in italics.

General

1. Disconnect the kill wires from the CD and connect a DC voltmeter between the kill wires and engine ground, turn the ignition switch on and off several times. If, at any time, you see voltage appearing on the meter, there is a problem in the harness or ignition switch. At NO TIME SHOULD YOU SEE BATTERY VOLTAGE ON A KILL CIRCUIT.
   It says to disconnect from the "CD", I don't know what that is, I disconnected them from the terminal strip on the side of the motor. This is strange, most of the time I would get zero. But sometimes it would be .20V up to .5V
2. Check the flywheel for a broken or loose magnet.
   I haven't pulled the flywheel yet.
3. Check for broken wires and terminals, especially inside the plastic plug-in connectors. We recommend that you remove the pins from the connectors and visually inspect them.
   all of the wiring looks pretty good, no major cracks or brittleness
4. Visually inspect stator for burned or discolored areas. If found, replace the stator. If the areas are on the battery charge windings, it indicated a possible problem with the rectifier.

Two Cylinder Engines with Combination CD Module with Built-in Ignition Coils

NO FIRE OR INTERMITENT ON ONE CYLINDER:

1. Check the stator resistance, you should read 680-800 ohms, DVA 180V or more from blue to yellow stator wires. (Note — On some two cylinder engines, the stator has two blue wires and no yellow wire. The stator will read from blue to blue). All stator wires should read open to engine ground.
   I have a multi tester bunt don't have a DVI tester, I don't know what DVA is. Is there a way around this?
2. Check the trigger resistance, trigger wire sets read approximately 50 ohms between the wire sets (DVA-5V or more), and open to engine ground.
   Do I need to do this with the flywheel off? I have not yet pulled the Flywheel
3. If readings are good, disconnect kill wire from one pack. If the dead cylinder starts firing, the problem is likely the blocking diode in the other pack.

 

[Nordin]

As log as you have spark on both cylinders DO NOT mess with the ign.system yet. Go for cleaning the carbs and also check the reedvalvs when you pull the carbs.
Seems the number 2 cyl. do not get any fuel/airmix.

The ign.troubleshotingchart you are refering to is the wrong one for your ign.system. Your system is the one at page 2 Magnapower II systems. The one at page 3 ADI system and fwd. are the Prestolite typ.

Put your energy at the carbs and reeds right now and maybe later go for the ign.system.

 

[msstring]

Thanks Nordin! Do you know off hand of a page or topic that would cover what to look for in the Carbs? I haven't started looking yet but if you have a reference that would save me some digging...

 

[Nordin]

No I do not know any site or page, BUT the carbs are the same as for 25-140Hp Chrysler and similar to any other carbs for any other brands.
Clean the bowl, jets, nozzels, inlet needle and channels. Set the float parallel to the casting edge for the bowl.

 

[msstring]

Well, I took the carbs off they look clean, the bowl was clean, the gaskets looked good, float appeared to be set level, the jets (that I could see) all appeared to be clear, I don't know what else to look for.
But after putting it all back together I made what I think is the most distinct discovery so far. That is that it is definitely only running on the bottom (#2) cylinder which is the cylinder that I thought was dry in my previous post. It runs exactly the same with that plug wire on the plug or grounded. I do have signal of spark on both cylinders using my timing light as a tester. But, I don't have a "Gap Tester" to test for actual spark (hopefully I can get one tomorrow).
I have 120# compression in both cylinders.

Below I have the troubleshoot guide with my notes in italics:
Magnapower II Systems

1. Disconnect the white and blue kill wires from the CD Module and retest. If the engine starts and inns, the key-switch or kill circuit is bad.
   I'm note sure where the "CD Module" is, I disconnected the wires from the termnal strip on the side of the motor, Will this have the same effect? Engine starts (poorly) with the wires on or off.
2. Connect a DC voltmeter from the kill wires to engine ground and turn the ignition switch on and off several times. At no time should you see battery voltage on a kill circuit.
   I get between .2 and .5 volts here sometimes but not always.
3. Connect a spark gap tester to all cylinders and test with the spark plugs in and out. If the coils will not fire with the spark plugs in, check compression with the spark plugs removed from all cylinders. A blown head gasket on these engines can cause the coils not to fire with the spark plugs installed. This is caused by a hard to explain problem with the triggering circuit.
   I have 120# compression on both cylinders. Does this eliminate the head gasket?
   I have indication of spark signal using my test light as a tester. But I do not have an actual "Gap Tester", will see if I can find one tomorrow.
4. Crank the engine with the starter and then stop. Check the DVA voltage on terminals Ti and T4. You should read between 170 and 270 volts Positive on terminal Ti and between 170 and 270 volts Negative on terminal T4. (Remember that some DVA adapters are not polarized and will read the same regardless of the polarity). If there is a low reading on one of the terminals, disconnect the white/blue and green/white trigger wires, then retest. If the readings are now correct, one of the trigger modules is bad. A continued low reading may be caused by a bad capacitor. To test, use a couple of jumper wires and swap the green and white capacitor wires going to terminals Ti and T4. If the low reading remains on the same terminal, the CD is bad. If it moves when you move the capacitor wires, the capacitor is shorted.
   Would this section apply if I have signal of spark (noted above)? I don't have a DVA adapter but will order one if needed.
5. Check to see if the ignition coils are wired correctly. The #1 coil on a two cylinder and the #1 & 2 cylinder on a four cylinder are wired as NEGATIVE GROUND. The #2 coil on a two cylinder and the #3 & 4 cylinder on a four cylinder are wired as POSITIVE GROUND.
   I will look at these but I have not disconnected the wires since this problem started

 

[Nordin]

Ok, how does the top plug look? Is it wet or dry?
Switch the ign.coils and see if the problem follows.
I have had a similar problem with a engine and it ended up with a bad ign.coil despite I had signal at my timinglight.

 

[msstring]

Top plug is wet, lots more fuel in that hole than the bottom one. Problem does not follow the coil, or the plug.
Could it be too much fuel in the top cylinder? It would seem like it would fire once the engine revs up a bit but it doesn't seem to. Is each cylinder fed off its own independent carb or do both carbs feed into a common intake? Definitely more fuel in the top cylinder which is also the dead one.

 

[Nordin]

Check the headgasket. As it says in the troubleshotchart.

The capacitor module contains two capacitors one for each cyl. Switch the green and white wires with each other at the CD module (at T1 and T4 terminals, you have to trace the green one because there are two green wirers at same T4 terminal. One goes to the capacitor module and the other to the trigger.

Maybe one capacitor in the module is weak or bad.

 

[msstring]

Thank you Nordin for your patience in working through this with me I do greatly appreciate the support.
1) Is there a way to "check" the head gasket other than compression or removal? My compression is equal between the two cylinders.
2) I assume the "Capacitor Module" is under the flywheel? I haven't pulled this off yet but it looks like I am going to get to . Can the capacitors be replaced individually or are they all part of the CD Module?

 

[Nordin]

Sorry but I think you have to pull the head and check the gasket. Be careful when you start unscrew the headbolts. If they are hard to loosen they can snap.
A compressontest will not tell you everything.
But first start with checking /switch the capacitor wirers. If you look under the flywheel rimm at portside (the side where the starter is mounted) just back of the starter before the cylinders, you can see the T1 and T4 terminal. If you are careful and have patient you can loosen the terminalscrews if you have a screwdriver with a thin shaft.
If you faile, pull off the flywheel then it is easier to work with the ign.system.
The capacitors are "built in" in the capacitor (module) not in the CD module and it is mounted at the starboard side of the engine under the wheel.
You can see the electrical diagram at maxrules.com then go to techspec and then Chrysler wiringdiagram and then 75-135Hp Magnapower II ignition.
The only diffrent to you engine is that you only have two ign.coils and two triggers, the rest is the same.

 

[msstring]

Well, I don't know if we are gaining or vs. verse but I certainly appreciate the continued support. The wiring diagram is wonderful! Between that and being able to see under the flywheel some of this is actually starting to make a little (very little) sense to me!

I switched the white and green wire and no change, top cylinder is still dead. I bought a gap tester and tried it very briefly but didn't get any visible spark with the points only about 1/16" apart. This is with the plugs in, I didn't try plugs out yet, I went directly to switching the wires.

Side Note, I have two batteries hooked up and I can only crank for a very short time before I lose all spark and have to let the batteries charge again. Could it be that even the spark I do get on the bottom cylinder is also very weak?

Back to the troubleshoot chart I'll try break down paragraph #4:

• Crank the engine with the starter and then stop. Check the DVA voltage on terminals Ti and T4. You should read between 170 and 270 volts Positive on terminal Ti and between 170 and 270 volts Negative on terminal T4. (Remember that some DVA adapters are not polarized and will read the same regardless of the polarity).
  I need to find a DVA adapter, not able to test yet. I assume these reading would be from terminal to ground?
  I do have a digital multimeter, what does the DVA do?
• If there is a low reading on one of the terminals, disconnect the white/blue and green/white trigger wires, then retest. If the readings are now correct, one of the trigger modules is bad.
  Not able to test yet
• A continued low reading may be caused by a bad capacitor. To test, use a couple of jumper wires and swap the green and white capacitor wires going to terminals Ti and T4.
  Not able to test the voltage reading yet but but definitely no spark (or not enough to fire the cylinder, remember the top hole is very wet compared to the bottom one).
• If the low reading remains on the same terminal, the CD is bad.
  The problem does not move to the other cylinder but I still wonder if the spark on both cylinders are equally weak?
• If it moves when you move the capacitor wires, the capacitor is shorted.
  The problem does not move to the other cylinder

 

[Nordin]

You can use a digital VOM, BUT it is not able to read top peak voltage. It gives you a RMS (root mean square) value. And you have to have a helper that engage the starter and you can look at and read the VOM when cranking.
But you can see if there is big a different between T1 and T4.

You says you can only crank for a short time and then the you loose spark!
Does the crankspeed decrease when you loose spark?
The crankspeed do not be to low because it make the stator to deliver to low voltage to charge the capacitor..

 

[msstring]

I am very confused. I have compression, fuel, spark and the spark is at the right time and still the cinder will not fire.

I used my spark gap tester to check spark. Could not get visible spark cranking with the starter but definitely had spark with engine running (pic below just for fun)

Still, engine does not run any different with that plug wire on or off, or gap tester clipped to plug or ground. Spark is not quite as strong or steady with the tester clipped to the plug as it is when clipped to ground.

Back to the troubleshoot chart I have updated my finding per paragraph #4:

• Crank the engine with the starter and then stop. Check the DVA voltage on terminals Ti and T4. You should read between 170 and 270 volts Positive on terminal Ti and between 170 and 270 volts Negative on terminal T4. (Remember that some DVA adapters are not polarized and will read the same regardless of the polarity).
  I need to find a DVA adapter, not able to test yet. I assume these reading would be from terminal to ground?
  With a digital volt meter I get:
  - Cranking with starter: +5V / -5V
  - Motor running: +210V / -193V
• If there is a low reading on one of the terminals, disconnect the white/blue and green/white trigger wires, then retest. If the readings are now correct, one of the trigger modules is bad.
  Not able to test yet
• A continued low reading may be caused by a bad capacitor. To test, use a couple of jumper wires and swap the green and white capacitor wires going to terminals Ti and T4.
  Low reading while cranking but good reading with engine running.
• If the low reading remains on the same terminal, the CD is bad.
  The problem does not move to the other cylinder
  Readings are relatively equal, I still have the wires switched, did not yet try to get a reading with them back in their normal position
• If it moves when you move the capacitor wires, the capacitor is shorted.
  The problem does not move to the other cylinder

 

[Nordin]

This ign.system can "drive you up the wall". I know.
Next suggestion from me is to switch the triggers. If that do not move the problem to the other cylinder ...... well change the CD module.
The CD module is not more available, BUT maybe Franz Buddenberg at FranzMarine have some used.
I know he made a "test rigg" from an old powerhead to have for checking used components to the MAG II system.

Have you checked the headgasket?

 

[msstring]

I haven't pulled the head yet. I don't have a new gasket yet to put it back together. Does the fact that the top cylinder has a lot more fuel than the bottom one mean anything? That just keeps bugging me. I tried pinching off the fuel line to that for a short time but it didn't seem to make it run any different.

 

[Nordin]

Is the "wet" one or the "dry" one working?
If it is the wet one, check the reedvalves. Maybe one or more pedals are broken. It will result in no fuel delivers to the combusten chamber.

 

[msstring]

The wet one is not working. I will look at them again, I looked at them briefly but don't really know what to look for. Just pull the carb and look through that hole and check the spring flaps there?

 

[Nordin]

Well that sounds like an ignition problem. Try to switch the triggers and see if the problem move.

 

[msstring]

No luck with the triggers. I did get a glimmer of hope this afternoon. I pinched the fuel line off to to top cylinder for quite a while and eventually it did fire intermittently for a while even after I released the line but then after that nothing again. This was also right before I ran out of fuel. Once before I only had a tiny bit of fuel and it started running better. At the time I thought it was a fluke but now I wonder if it is related.