87 225 Johnson...horn, stalls

[mtngringo]

Hola from Mexico. My '87 225 Johnson starts nicely when cold, and runs normally, for 3 or four minutes. At that point the continuous-tone horn comes on, and after another minute or so, the engine bogs and dies. It will not restart until a half hour or so has passed, but then it does the same old horn and die routine.<br /><br />Here's what I've checked so far: <br /><br />Racor had a lot of goo in the bowl, so I put in new filter and cleaned bowl, plus replaced inline filter. <br /><br />Checked for suction or fuel leaks or crimps in hoses, primer bulb. No problemas.<br /><br />Remote tank vent is clear. <br /><br />Pulled plugs after the horn and stall routine. They looked too wet and black.<br /><br />Have tried priming at the switch when engine begins faltering. Doesn't help. Have tried repumping the tank bulb as well when faltering begins. No change.<br /><br />This is probably unrelated, but I notice some odd fluctuations on my voltmeter when the horn starts. The voltmeter will be reading around 14 or 15, then when the horn starts it will drift up toward and into the red zone (16-17 or so), then the engine falters and dies. Perhaps this voltmeter thing has nothing to do with the problem...<br /><br />Whaddya think my problem is likely to be, amigos? I haven't disassembled the carbs quite yet because I likely will have to order the kits from the states. A costly, slow, pain...I'm hoping it'll be something else more simple... but what?

 

[OBJ]

Re: 87 225 Johnson...horn, stalls

Hi gringo and welcome to the forum.<br /><br />The continuous alarm means either your fuel flow is restricted or your engine is overheating. When was the last time the water pump impeller was replaced? Is there water coming from the tell tale on the lower engine pan? How long have you had the engine and is this a problem that just started? May sound like a bunch of meaninless questions but history does help.

 

[mtngringo]

Re: 87 225 Johnson...horn, stalls

Gracias! Impellor is a year old. The tell tale has a strong stream and the engine doesn't feel more than barely warm to the touch...(doesn't have time to get too warm in the only three or foour minutes it runs before dying...)<br /><br />Along these lines, however, I was thinking that a bad heat sensor could trigger the alarm... but that wouldn't cause the engine to die would it?

 

[mtngringo]

Re: 87 225 Johnson...horn, stalls

Forgot to respond that I have had the engine one year and the problem just started Sunday. (Caused us to have to limp back 11 miles across the Bay of Banderas with just a 5 hp kicker, in very stiff breeze and fast-rising seas. A little too scarey. Don't want to repeat that if I can help it---

 

[Joe Reeves]

Re: 87 225 Johnson...horn, stalls

Mtngringo.... The following may apply to your problem.<br /><br />(Fuel Anti Siphon Valve)<br /><br />Many of the later OMC V/6 engines incorporate a fuel restriction warning via a vaccum device attached to the powerhead. If the engine overheats, or if you have a fuel restriction, the warning is the same.... a steady constant beep.<br /><br />The fact that a engine is not overheating, but the warning horn sounds off with a constant steady beep, and that the rpms drop drastically would indicate that the engine is starving for fuel due to a fuel restriction.<br /><br />Check the built in fuel tank where the rubber fuel line attaches to the tank fitting. That fitting is in all probability a "Anti Siphon" valve which is notorious for sticking in a semi closed position. It will be aluminum, about 2" long, and the insides of it will consist of a spring, a ball, and a ball seat.<br /><br />If this valve exists, remove it, knock out those inner components which will convert it to a straight through fitting, then re-install it. Hopefully that cures the problem.

 

[mtngringo]

Re: 87 225 Johnson...horn, stalls

Removed floor access to fibreglass fuel tank....no anti siphon valve there. <br /><br />Any other ideas??

 

[OBJ]

Re: 87 225 Johnson...horn, stalls

Hi gringo....may need a little help from Joe Reeves on this one. Re-read your post and double read the part on your volt meter doing weired things when the engine dies. Could be a stator going to ground and taking your ignition system with it. Don't have any diagrams with me as I am home. I'll post for Joe to take another look and see if we can get you an answer or a place to start looking.

 

[mtngringo]

Re: 87 225 Johnson...horn, stalls

Thanks Jim...you're helpful..if you ever vacay in Puerto Vallarta the cervezas are on me. <br /><br />If it is electrical, something such as you theorized, how would that trigger the warning horn? It doesn't seem to me that it could, but then again, I´m still learning my way around this engine...<br /><br />That horn starts going like clockwork, every time, after three or four minutes of run time...whereas today when I started the engine several times, the volt meter sometimes crept up into the red and sometimes did not. Maybe it's an unrelated fluke...don't know...<br /><br />Just for the sake of discussion...the fuel starvation sensor is in the powerhead, right? So, it can be triggered by a blockage at any point upstream, theoretically, yes? Or no? For example, if just the supply line to one carburetor, or only the jets in one carburetor are blocked, would that partial blockage be enough starvation to trigger the alarm?<br /><br />One last thing that may shed light...today, I tried pumping the bulb every 30 or 40 seconds, back up to super tight. Nonetheless, the horn started on schedule BUT I was able to keep the engine running as long as I kept squeezing that bulb like a crazed dairyfarmer...<br /><br />Incidentally, the bulb has always, since I've owned this rig, gone fairly flat when the engine is running...but it had always run just fine anyway...up until now...Is it normal for the bulb to lose some pressure while running?

 

[Joe Reeves]

Re: 87 225 Johnson...horn, stalls

Mmtngringo..... I've been keeping my eye on this problem and the associated replys etc and from what you've had to say (Warning horn comes on steady, then engine dies), that still spells out a fuel restriction between the VRO pump and the fuel supply.<br /><br />Since you have checked for a anti siphon valve and you're sure that one does not exist it's possible that the fuel valve (inside the fuel primer bulb) closest to the engine has come apart. That would allow the inner portion of the valve to fall out, turn itself around, then get drawn into the outer portion of the valve in a backwards position, effectively shuting off the fuel supply.<br /><br />Some years back,I did at one time find a rather large piece of plastic within a built in tank of a Marine Police boat which would float around and every so often wrap itself around the fuel supply pickup line within the tank, which of course shut off the fuel supply completely. However, this was a new boat and the problem originated at the factory causing the problem to surface right at the start of usage. If your boat has been in use for awhile (months/years) and this problem has just surfaced, I wouldn't be concerned about this type problem within the tank.<br /><br />However, check the fuel supply at the tank for any blockage by drawing at that point (or as close as possible) such as siphoning some gas out of it to check the draw resistance and watch the flow.<br /><br />Now, you've also mentioned the voltage change. This leads me in another direction and brings up the thought that possibly you have two problems, or if one problem, one that is extremely weird.<br /><br />Under the flywheel is a Stator/Charge Coil assy. There are small coil windings around the side of that stator which pertain to the charging system. There are also two large black coils at the back portion of that stator which pertain to and are the beginning of the ignition system. They supply approximately 300v AC to the powerpack. The stator runs extremely hot and in time those large black coils start to melt down. This results in a voltage drop to the powerpack which in turn causes the powerpack to fail (no ignition). After it cools off, the stator may again supply enough voltage to energize the powerpack... and the cycle continues (ignition, no ignition, ignition, etc etc). Eventually the stator would fail completely.<br /><br />Look under the flywheel to view those large black coils to see if they're starting to melt down. Usually there is a sticky substance dripping down on the block. However, I'd suggest that you remove the flywheel and the stator to examine it thoroughly. Note that when re-installing the flywheel nut, it must be torqued to exactly 145 foot pounds.

 

[OBJ]

Re: 87 225 Johnson...horn, stalls

Good Morning mtn...<br /><br />The sensor that gives you the restricted fuel flow alarm is located on the port side of the engine near the starter. (this is from looking at my reference pictures.) It will have a smaller fuel line leading to the main line that goes to the VRO pump. It was interesting on your last post what you said about pumping the bulb and keeping the motor running althought the alarm would keep sounding. This would indicate that your VRO pump, also mounted on the port side, is failing. When you mentioned the flat bulb, is that literally flat or just "soft". The primer bulb will get soft once the engine is running and the fuel is flowing. You may or may not know what the VRO pump does so just to keep us both in the same ballpark, the pump is the fuel/oil pump that supplies the engine with the proper fuel/oil mix. If you would, locate the pump and find the wire harness coming from it. It will lead over to the main engine harness. This gives you the alarms for no oil flow to the pump. Once you have located the harness, count the number of wires in the harness. There should be three or four wires. Three wires would indicate an older pump. The most up to date pumps have four. Also while your nosing around in there. Look at the hoses going to the pump and check for any hoses that may be lose or kinked. The volt meter issue still is buggy me. Please look at the power packs on the engine, these will have leads going to each of the six ignition coils mounted on the engine. See if you can see a "CDL" marked on the packes. The CDL indicates the packs have RPM limiting functions to prevent over revving the engine. I know it's a lot of info right now but knowing more about the engine will help us to help you better. Just one more thing. If there is a Johnson/Evinrude dealer close, it would be a real good idea to get a service manual for you engine. They are still available and are loaded with lots of good info. OK. That's enough for now.<br /><br />PS...the part about the "Crazed Dairy Farmer" really cracked me up. Good Luck!

 

[OBJ]

Re: 87 225 Johnson...horn, stalls

Looks like Joe is up early to! Thanks for the help Joe.

 

[mtngringo]

Re: 87 225 Johnson...horn, stalls

Wow. Great, thorough, thoughtful posts Joe and Jim. You are both very kind and knowledgeable.<br /><br />Let's see...Joe, it sounds to me as if you are feeling that the main problem here is upstream of the carburetor or VRO, correct? I do know where that particular sensor is, it connects into the fuel feeder line with a plastic tee connector just ahead of the VRO. I thought perhaps there was second sensor further downstream, but if not, then I can eliminate fouled carbs as the primary problem causing the horn and stall. Right? Am I following your reasoning correctly? (I hope so because I have already been to the local dealer here in Puerto Vallarta, and they have no manual and no carb kits for this engine in stock. It's a small dealer. (I've got family coming to visit from the 'States, all excited about going out on this boat for the first time...and a dead boat. Heh heh...Isn't that just how it always works. <br /><br />I will peek under the flywheel and look for melting stators. (Don't have a flywheel puller or even a torq wrench.)<br /><br />Jim, you are correct, the bulb does not go flat, just soft. <br /><br />If, as part of or in addition to my other problem, the fuel side of the VRO is failing, is that a difficult rebuild? The dealer told me they might have the VRO parts in stock, but in separate pieces, not as a kit. So, I assume I'd need to disassemble it to know exactly what I need next time I drive in to the dealer.<br /><br />By the way guys, I put a clear plastic automotive inline filter on temporarily yesterday just so I could more clearly watch the strength of fuel flow. This is inline just before the sensor tee and VRO.)<br /><br />Fuel continues to flow through it even as the horn comes on and the engine dies. But, at a slightly reduced rate. It's in horizontally,and the clear plastic shell drops from about 3/4 full to about half full. Does this tell us anything?<br /><br />The packs do have CD on them....

 

[clanton]

Re: 87 225 Johnson...horn, stalls

Locate the fuel restriction sensor disconnect tan wire, if alarm stops, you have located the sensor that is setting the alarm. You can check the other sensors the same way. You did not say if you were using the VRO2 are using premix.

 

[mtngringo]

Re: 87 225 Johnson...horn, stalls

Hi Clanton. Using the VRO. I'll find the tan wire and check the sensor in the morning. If it isn't that sensor, which sensor would you go to next?

 

[clanton]

Re: 87 225 Johnson...horn, stalls

The tan leads for the 2 overheat sensors, located on the top of the cylinder heads. Then the VRO sensor, then remote tank sensor.

 

[OBJ]

Re: 87 225 Johnson...horn, stalls

Goodmorning mtn....<br /><br />Here's a way to at least eliminate or maybe pinpoint the fuel tank as the problem. Hook up an external fuel tank with a separate hose. If you have a friend that has a six gallon fuel tank and would let you borrow it for just a bit that would be great. If the motor still does the same thing, then you would know that it's not your existing built in tank or hose that is causing the problem. The fuel filter you mentioned will run about half to three quarters full with the engine operating and is normal. Did you find all the components that we have been talking about? If the coils under the flywheel are melting, you may not need to remove the flywheel to see this as some of the material may be running down on the block under the flywheel. Please keep us posted as to what you find. Thanks!

 

[mtngringo]

Re: 87 225 Johnson...horn, stalls

Joe and Jim, the coils/stators under the flywheel appear to be okay...<br /><br />Clanton, I disconnected the fuel starvation alarm wire, and sure enough, no horn.<br /><br />Once again, by pumping the bulb every 30 seconds or so, enough to keep it tight, the engine will keep right on going...<br /><br />So, is it likely to be failure of the fuel pump side of the VRO, (question, the VRO must still be trying to pump if it creates enough suction on the line to trigger the sensor, yes?); OR, as Joe has suspected, some blockage upstream of the sensor, in the tank pickup, tank outlet, or bulb?<br /><br />Joe what I found when looking for an anti-siphon valve was just what appeared to be a common brass reduction plumbing fitting, reducing the outlet from 1/2 to 3/8, with the hose directly on that. Perhaps there is a mechanism in there, but it sure didn't look like ther could be.<br /><br />Jim don't have a spare tank yet to try, except for my kicker tank, and its 1/4 hoses and fittings aren't compatible...will try to think of who else might have a spare tank...or will try to rig a reducer fitting...

 

[mtngringo]

Re: 87 225 Johnson...horn, stalls

Was able rig up the kicker tank...and made no difference...same as it ever was...ran a few minutes, then died...was able to keep it running by pumping the kicker tank bulb, same as on big tank...<br /><br />So, are we looking at VRO rebuild, or carbs, or whaddya think?

 

[ob]

Re: 87 225 Johnson...horn, stalls

Sounds like a fuel pump problem to me.Have you insured that the crankcase pulse hose that actuates the fuel pump air motor is attached securely with no leaks?Also with engine not running,if you prime the bulb does it get hard after a few pumps as would be indicative of float valves seating fully?

 

[clanton]

Re: 87 225 Johnson...horn, stalls

If the fuel pump was bad it would not pull hard enough to set the alarm. You need to check the fuel system from VRO2 pump back to tank. If you have a vacumn gauge, connect it to sensor fuel line T and check reading, you are looking for no more then 5 lbs, over 5 pounds restriction in system some place. When you check the fuel system you have to check all hoses and fittings, hose must be 3/8, fittings must pass 9/32 drill bit or 9/32 ball. This engine should not have S.L.O.W., which reduces rpms to app 2500 when over heated. There is a small plastic filter, about 12 inches from the pump, did you check this?