90 hp ficht - stumbling

82montauk

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just replaced the EMM, high pressure fuel pump, gas tank, plugs, fuel / water seperators (2) and fuel line on my 1999 e90fpleec motor. Motor starts and runs fine at idle, but runs 'rough' throughout the rpm range. It also won't hit as high of rpm's as it did previous to the fuel pump failure - only getting 5200 max. The only other thing I have changes is the in/out lines coming from the external fuel filter. When I changed the tank I noticed the arrows for the in/out were reversed so I put them back the way they're supposed to be (arrow into filter from tank, arrow out of filter to motor). The guys at DFI Technolgies said I shouldn't have to recalibrate the injectors for the new computer on this motor. Anyone have any suggestions? I'm really ready to have it running right in order to sell the whole rig and upgrade ('82 Montauk in mighty fine condition). Thanks in advance.
 

boobie

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Re: 90 hp ficht - stumbling

Dumb basic question, when's the last time the plugs were changed and were they the proper plugs and "indexed" when installed ??
 

82montauk

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Re: 90 hp ficht - stumbling

just gapped, indexed, and replaced them - they have less than an hour on them.
 

boobie

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Re: 90 hp ficht - stumbling

If you haven't had a lap top hooked up to it yet and checked for any codes or up dates for your mapping take it up to Will's Marine in Pensacola and have Jack hook his lap top up to it and see what he finds.
 

82montauk

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Re: 90 hp ficht - stumbling

Will's did a diagnostic and told me i needed a new computer, so I installed a new (used) computer but now it has the issues described above. I may have to have this one put back on the diagnostic software to be sure the new computer is functioning properly. I'm hoping there is some other trouble-shooting I can do before breaking down and paying another $100 for the diagnostic......
 

boobie

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Re: 90 hp ficht - stumbling

Did you get this new EMM from DFI ? NOT to say anything bad about DFI 'cause they're a good company but I've gotten units from them before and had to send them back and the prob finally got corrected. If you haven't got a lap top with the proper hook up and software you're sort of SOL to do any trouble shooting. Aint it a great world with all this new tech ?
 

tim1198

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Re: 90 hp ficht - stumbling

Hi I have this 90hp Ficht also and also have the diag software. I've had RPM issues, fuel injector issues, gas line issues, and the sw generally won't help output any codes for any of these issues; unless you have a check engine light on.

I have had the same problem off an on for the last few months. I think it's a fuel starvation problem (either the lift pump or vapor separator pump). There's an entire troubleshooting process to go through. You can get a fuel pump pressure tester and hook it up to the tee fitting (like a bicycle tire fitting) in the back of the motor. When the key is on, the vapor separator pump comes on for 10 seconds. You should get between 20-30 psi (mine is now 25psi after unclogging it).

Another way to troubleshoot is to pump the bulb manually when you're WOT. If that fixes it, then it's your lift pump.

How are the compression readings?
Tim
 

82montauk

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Re: 90 hp ficht - stumbling

The only thing I got from DFI was their advice. After looking at the diagnostics from my old computer, they told me it was pretty much fried and wouldn't be worth fixing.

The check engine light turned off when I replaced the EMM. I have have suspected the lift pump (one of the few things I have not replaced). Isn't there a rebuild kit for the lift pump? Seems like I saw one mentioned somewhere? Vapor separator is new - has 26psi so that's ruled out.

I'll try the bulb priming test - good idea.
 

seahorse5

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Re: 90 hp ficht - stumbling

Will's did a diagnostic and told me i needed a new computer, so I installed a new (used) computer but now it has the issues described above. ......

If you just took a computer off another motor and installed it, that may be part of the problem or could even cause engine damage.

The computers are built for the engine's serial number and are programmed for the fuel injector's individual calibrations. When put on another motor the injectors are not calibrated to the used computer so you may have lean and rich runnings at different times on different cylinders. Too much lean running ruins a motor.
 

boobie

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Re: 90 hp ficht - stumbling

Agree with Seahorse 100%. This may be where all your probs are with the EMM not jibing with the injectors. Some can run to lean or to rich if the EMM doesn't know what it is dealing with. That's the reason for programing the injectors to the EMM.
 

wilde1j

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Re: 90 hp ficht - stumbling

Each injector has a coefficient associated with it that needs to be programmed into the EMM. Typically, a replacement injector comes with a disc containing it's unique info.
 

82montauk

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Re: 90 hp ficht - stumbling

I thought the same thing about the EMM's and injectors - only because I've read so many posts about it in the past. This is EMM #3 for this ole gal. When I replaced it the first time it, it was plug and play - ran like a top without any programming. I spoke to DFI about this (#3) EMM and he said it was not necessary to program the EMM on this size/year motor.

I do think it's injector-related thought. The motor sounds fine until @1600 rpm, which I believe is the rpm that the injector switches from homogeneous (?) to stratisfied. I pulled one of the injectors off and turned igition on to see what would happen, and it just squirted fuel out. Is there any way to clean/check the injectors at home?

Thanks everyone for your help.
 

wilde1j

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Re: 90 hp ficht - stumbling

You are confused about how the injectors are programmed. They go from extremely lean up to ~ 2K RPM, then much richer mixture above that for cooling, at least that is how they work in E-Tecs, which I assume is similar in Ficht's. Don't know about Ficht injectors, but E-Tec injectors are not field service and some are not serviceable at all.

Are you telling us that all Ficht injectors have exactly the same flow characteristics and there are no unique injector coefficients at all?
 

boobie

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Re: 90 hp ficht - stumbling

Just for the heck of it, could you get any part #'s off the injectors on your mtr ? If you can, post them here. I may have more info.
 

tim1198

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Re: 90 hp ficht - stumbling

You are confused about how the injectors are programmed. They go from extremely lean up to ~ 2K RPM, then much richer mixture above that for cooling, at least that is how they work in E-Tecs, which I assume is similar in Ficht's. Don't know about Ficht injectors, but E-Tec injectors are not field service and some are not serviceable at all.

Are you telling us that all Ficht injectors have exactly the same flow characteristics and there are no unique injector coefficients at all?

I recall reading about the reason why the injectors were individually serialized and characterized. The original FICHT injectors were not spray pattern calibrated, causing carbon build-up at low RPM. So I think they went to indexing the plugs (hex key on 2000 models and thereafter) and individually programming the injectors to reduce carbon build-up.

I think this works for the first "x" hours of use, afterwhich, the computer has no way of knowing how to compensate for clogs, and performance losses associated with use. There is very little closed loop feedback in the EMM system for injectors. It merely turns on the switch and assumes the injectors turn on. I use the software myself and am not that impressed; although it is pretty cool for its time.

Given the pre-2000 FICHT don't have performance problems using non-calibrated injectors AND virtually no other fuel injection systems individually custom calibrate fuel injectors; I think this is a bunch of hogwash for injectors that are 10 years old (like mine). Everytime I see development engineers measure 2x4's with micrometers, I am skeptical of its long term viability. Just my opinion. It's ludicrous that there are over $2400 worth of injectors on my 90HP FICHT.

Back to your issue Whaler82..... One way to troubleshoot if the fuel injector is working or not is to individually unplug the sparkplug wires one at a time while it's idling. If it doesn't drop RPM, it may be the culprit. If you can get to 5200rmp, I think they're all firing. When one of mine went out (1 of 4 injectors), I couldn't get above 3500rpm. The other way is using the s/w, which turns it on and you listen for clicks to verify it's working. The s/w isn't all that impressive for fuel injection issues; it only gives you the ability to turn injectors on and off. this tells you nothing about how they're performing relative to the factory spray calibrations.

I'm sure some will find fault in my reasoning, but my 16 yrs of engineering experience help form some of my strong opinions. good luck, keep us updated.
Tim
 

tim1198

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Re: 90 hp ficht - stumbling

The only thing I got from DFI was their advice. After looking at the diagnostics from my old computer, they told me it was pretty much fried and wouldn't be worth fixing.

The check engine light turned off when I replaced the EMM. I have have suspected the lift pump (one of the few things I have not replaced). Isn't there a rebuild kit for the lift pump? Seems like I saw one mentioned somewhere? Vapor separator is new - has 26psi so that's ruled out.

I'll try the bulb priming test - good idea.

Yes, there is a lift pump rebuild kit. My 2000 model 90hp was $38. 2 gaskets, a rubber diaphragm, 2 springs, and some check valves. It's an 1 hour job. Part number for mine was 0439881 for $38 on boats.net.

I just replaced mine, and it's running really well (for now); although I'm not convinced it was the root cause. It didn't hurt to replace, so I did it, since there is virtually no way of knowing if it's performing to its potential. The book says to "compare" the flow to manually pumping. This is arbitrary and useless. I'd much prefer some sort of measureable test like "oz per second". Or like the vapor separator test, the output should be between 20-30psi.

Good luck. Keep us posted.
Tim
 

boobie

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Re: 90 hp ficht - stumbling

Gee Wizz Tim 1198, I guess my 46 years of being a certified tech for both OMC and BRP doesn't count much against your 16 years of engineering. Does it ?
 

82montauk

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Re: 90 hp ficht - stumbling

I'm not posing as an expert on the fuel injectors by any means. All I know about this motor is what I've been told by certified mechanics and the guys over at DFI ('no programming on these injectors & EMM's are interchangable' info). Heck, the only reason I know anything about this motor is because I've toyed with it myself over the last 10 years, and have read a lot from this and other forums!

As for replacing the EMM, remember this is the second one I've put on this motor. The first one came off a 1999 115hp and ran like a champ after just plugging it in and firing it up. If they (emm's) all had motor-specific programming, I doubt the second computer would have ran so well for 4 years.

Requested injector info:
All 4 injectors have #5000583 and then each one has its own (serial?) number as follows:
port top: 0000132
port btm:0000512
sbd top: 0000131
sbd btm: 0000128

I think I'll rebuild the lift pump for $38 while you knowledgable folks out there come up with some more insight. Thanks for all the help thus far.
 

82montauk

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Re: 90 hp ficht - stumbling

Suprise....rebuild kit for 1999 model is 'obsolete'. guess i'll look on ebay unless someone can tell me another year that would work for my motor...
 

boobie

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Re: 90 hp ficht - stumbling

Montauk, according to BRP service bulletin # 2001-01 the 5000583 injectors are NON compensated therefore you should have no probs with the swapping of ECU's you have been doing. This is the additional info I had for you but needed the part #'s. Hope this helps. There's more to this story but to long to tell here.
 
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