96 120 force low water pump pressure

[keith1000]

Hi guys
Im new here my name is Keith, Im from Caledonia Ontario Canada, so here goes my first post.
I bought this boat last summer (2011) 96 bayliner 120 force. It was off a friend for a really good price. It was my first boat and I drove it around for the summer with no problems. When winter came I needed help to winterize it (again being first boat) so I contacted a relitive who had a similar motor 75 merc and went to his house to winterize together.
It started with a jug of fuel stabilizer in the gas and running the motor for 10 min with a hose and earmuffs connected. At this point we noticed that my stream of water out of the "tell tail" (think thats what its called) was no where near as strong as his. He then disconnected the hose from the muffs and connected a smaller piece of hose and put it in a jug of RV antifreeze and started his engine again and it sucked the antifreeze through the motor and out the "tell tail". So we continued to do mine the same way, it worked but again the stream of water was very weak on mine. We took out the plugs fogged the cylinders bodda bing winterize done. Oh ya forgot drained and filled the bottom end also.
Which brings us to spring (2012) put the battery in and started it up and away i went. I drove it for the summer and TRUTHFULLY never once noticing the strenght of the stream coming out of the tell tail hole. Just this past weekend i thought it was time to start the winterize process and i could do it myself this year. So what i did is filled the tank and put in the stabilizer, and thought what would be better than one last run on the grand for the season. After a good run my buddy and i were just relaxing and talking at a idle, and for the first time ever this loud ear piercing siren was coming from the dash, it was at that second i noticed NO water coming out of the spout so i shut down the boat. Still not sure of why this siren was on i turned the key on and it still went off, so i turned it off again and my buddy figured it was a over heat alarm, so we just coasted and hung out for a bit. After about !0 min i started the boat with no siren and again noticed no water coming out. So i put it in forward and started driving and water started coming out, it worked well enough to get it back to the truck and on the trailer.
So this week i called a local shop which informed me the impeller must be shot. So i removed the bottom end and water pump, and what we noticed was the impeller was spinning around the spline, the actual impeller fins dont look bad. So i got the complete kit (46-43024A 7) which containes the impeller, water pump plate, outer plate, cover and gaskets (because my cover was scoared) and put it all together.
So knowing that the stabilizer was already in the gas i didnt need to run the motor with the hose, so i went right to the antifreeze stage as said earlier from last years experience winterizing. I hooked my muffs to a small hose and into the jug of antifreeze, and started the motor, well to my surprise after installing the new parts the pump did not suck the antifreeze through the motor so after a few moments i shut it down. "Confused" i thought maybe its because the motor is empty it needed a prime so we hooked the house water to the muffs and turned it on and the water started spitting out of the tell tail hole, but again like last year it wasnt very strong at all at a idle, it was stronger at higher rpms.
So after running with the hose we did a quick change back to the antifreeze to suck it through the motor and again the pump would not suck it up???

So really in a nut shell, this whole story for a couple questions,
is there still something wrong?
should the pump be able to suck up the antifreeze under its own suction power?
how powerfull should the stream (tell tail)(with muffs) be at a idle

After doing a little winterizing searching tonight i see that this antifreeze step is not needed cause i cant find anything about anyone else doing it (on a outboard) that is, i seen some on inboards.

Im going to take the boat back to the river tomorrow(sunday) and put the bottom end in the water and start it and see how it works (river is only 5 min away)

wish me luck

thx for reading Keith

P.S. i dont think my muffs are very good the rubber/plastic is pretty rigid.

 

[batman99]

Re: 96 120 force low water pump pressure

Hi Keith.

My 1996 Bayliner with Force 120 water spray isn't very strong while on water muffs at idle either. Think this is normal. Especially on single pressure muffs and low tap water pressure.

Never used Antifreeze on OB engines before. Think this is unnecessary "optional" step on OB engines.

I do know that Force 120 love to carbon up. Especially if set rich and one doesn't drive them very hard either. And when carboning up, their inner engine carbon can cause havic inside the engine. Stuff like stuck rings (which creates low compression and loss of power) and other weird performance problems.

Before winterizing, suggest doing a de-carb process. It only takes max 90 minutes (of engine run time) and your 2-stoke engine will love it - especially before its long winter rest. 2-Stroke engine de-carbing is like brushing one's teeth (to remove crud) before going to bed - before a human body goes to rest. Going to bed (for long rest) clean means the item wakes up clean and fresh as well....

For this 2-stroke engine decarb process, simply:
- Unsing onboard tank, warm up the engine by letting it idle on muffs for 5 minutes. Fast idle while in "N" gear.
- With warm engine, remove its gas line (before its squeeze bulb), add short 5ft long gase hose and stick hose into an external 5L gas can.
- With 5L external can, use your normal 50:1 high octaine fuel
- Within the external 5L can, also add 3/4 can of Sea Foam - Motor Treatment (purchased from Canadian Tire or many other auto stores). re: http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRgraCxI2Qt4v4dwBXQdsuRRTKheWypqN8JwlKrdkigdqSXkNPwqQ
- With warm engine, run at fast idle and "let her smoke". If wondering, the more than usual smoke is the old carbon residue inside the egine letting go and being burnt up - being pushed out its exhaust. Let run at fast idle for 4.5 Ls of gas or for 30-45 minutes - which ever comes first. re: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDQSiYv6dSs
- With engine off, let engine site for 60 minutes - for the Sea Foam residue chemical to soak in.
- Add stablizer into its onboard gas tank.
- Reconnect engine's gas line to onboard gas tank and take to the Grand River.
- Now, drive it like you stolen it. re: High RPMs to blow the remaining carbon out.

Some recommend storing boat with full fuel tank. Some recommend with empty fuel tank. For me, I like storing with empty onboard fuel tank. But, I add stablizer to remaining 5% of fuel (since its nearly impossible to drain an onboard tank completely dry). Thus, ensuring it gets brand new high octane fresh gas (clean gas) in the spring.

For engine winterizion (after final "drove like you stolen it" run), I remove (quick disconnect) its gas line, and idle its engine until runs out of gas. Thus, emptying as much gas from each carb. I then remove each spark plug, spray fogging oil (like: http://www.yamaha-motor.com/assets/accessories/250/storerite-250.jpg ) inside each cylinder and with ignitioon key off (plugs removed), I pull rope a few times. Thus, ensuring the fog spray is distribed evenly on all cylinder walls. I then install the plugs (wire off) and hand tighten the plugs down. With wires off, it reminds me to clean plugs and tighten down in the spring. And, I put remaing SeaFoam - Motor treatment can (and remaining .5L of mixed gas from 5L external can) inside the onboard gas tank. Thus, giving it some good motor treatment for its initial spring start-up runs.

The above works for me. Others have their own engine winterization steps.

Hope this helps...

 

[keith1000]

Re: 96 120 force low water pump pressure

Hi Keith.

My 1996 Bayliner with Force 120 water spray isn't very strong while on water muffs at idle either. Think this is normal. Especially on single pressure muffs and low tap water pressure.

Never used Antifreeze on OB engines before. Think this is unnecessary "optional" step on OB engines.

I do know that Force 120 love to carbon up. Especially if set rich and one doesn't drive them very hard either. And when carboning up, their inner engine carbon can cause havic inside the engine. Stuff like stuck rings (which creates low compression and loss of power) and other weird performance problems.

Before winterizing, suggest doing a de-carb process. It only takes max 90 minutes (of engine run time) and your 2-stoke engine will love it - especially before its long winter rest. 2-Stroke engine de-carbing is like brushing one's teeth (to remove crud) before going to bed - before a human body goes to rest. Going to bed (for long rest) clean means the item wakes up clean and fresh as well....

For this 2-stroke engine decarb process, simply:
- Unsing onboard tank, warm up the engine by letting it idle on muffs for 5 minutes. Fast idle while in "N" gear.
- With warm engine, remove its gas line (before its squeeze bulb), add short 5ft long gase hose and stick hose into an external 5L gas can.
- With 5L external can, use your normal 50:1 high octaine fuel
- Within the external 5L can, also add 3/4 can of Sea Foam - Motor Treatment (purchased from Canadian Tire or many other auto stores). re: http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRgraCxI2Qt4v4dwBXQdsuRRTKheWypqN8JwlKrdkigdqSXkNPwqQ
- With warm engine, run at fast idle and "let her smoke". If wondering, the more than usual smoke is the old carbon residue inside the egine letting go and being burnt up - being pushed out its exhaust. Let run at fast idle for 4.5 Ls of gas or for 30-45 minutes - which ever comes first. re: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDQSiYv6dSs
- With engine off, let engine site for 60 minutes - for the Sea Foam residue chemical to soak in.
- Add stablizer into its onboard gas tank.
- Reconnect engine's gas line to onboard gas tank and take to the Grand River.
- Now, drive it like you stolen it. re: High RPMs to blow the remaining carbon out.

Some recommend storing boat with full fuel tank. Some recommend with empty fuel tank. For me, I like storing with empty onboard fuel tank. But, I add stablizer to remaining 5% of fuel (since its nearly impossible to drain an onboard tank completely dry). Thus, ensuring it gets brand new high octane fresh gas (clean gas) in the spring.

For engine winterizion (after final "drove like you stolen it" run), I remove (quick disconnect) its gas line, and idle its engine until runs out of gas. Thus, emptying as much gas from each carb. I then remove each spark plug, spray fogging oil (like: http://www.yamaha-motor.com/assets/accessories/250/storerite-250.jpg ) inside each cylinder and with ignitioon key off (plugs removed), I pull rope a few times. Thus, ensuring the fog spray is distribed evenly on all cylinder walls. I then install the plugs (wire off) and hand tighten the plugs down. With wires off, it reminds me to clean plugs and tighten down in the spring. And, I put remaing SeaFoam - Motor treatment can (and remaining .5L of mixed gas from 5L external can) inside the onboard gas tank. Thus, giving it some good motor treatment for its initial spring start-up runs.

The above works for me. Others have their own engine winterization steps.

Hope this helps...

Hi thanks for the reply, seeing that you mention CT you live in Canada?
I think i will give this a try, just a couple questions
You said you have not done the antifreeze thing which dont surprise me after things i have seen and read, but you didnt answer my one question. Under the water pumps own suction "should" the pump be able to suck liquid through the muffs out of a bucket?
After the "run it like i stole it" run you say pull the gas line and run it till it dies, should i do this back at home with muffs or after its back on the trailer with the motor still in the river
Is there any way to measure the water pump output pressure?
thx again
keith

 

[batman99]

Re: 96 120 force low water pump pressure

.

Yes. Run the engine dry after pulling gas line quick connect off the engine. One can do this at home - while engine is idling (while connected to muffs). Talk about muffs, many folks have stated not to run engine higher than fast idle while on water muffs. Usual idle in "N" and slightly faster when doing a de-carb. Never do rev / rev high RPMs while the engine is on water muffs. After running engine dry, one can also remove each carb bowel as well. But if one pulls stablizer into the carbs, then only running the carbs dry (while gasline is disconnected) is ok as well.

Water is a very thin (easy to move) liquid. Very easy to "suck up" the 1996 Force 120 long / extra long engine bottom end. Antifreeze is a much thicker liquid. Thus, much harder to suck up the vertical inner engine parts. And being thicker, I wonder if thicker antifreeze will snap or strip gears on the water pump as well. Much like "too much" Lucus Engine Oil additive risks snapping internal oil pump of 4-stoke engines. Sometimes, "too much" thicker liquid is a bad thing. Especially for an older age extra long Outboard motor - which has a long vertical climb as well.

As a suggestion, visit U-tube and search for Outboard engine winterization clips. View how many folks winterize their power head and bottom ends. Read the comments of the many videos as well. Then "clone" the tasks you feel most comfortable - for your specific OB engine.

Hope this helps as well...

 

[keith1000]

Re: 96 120 force low water pump pressure

another question
you suggest to run the motor on muffs for 45 min with the seafoam mix, in stead of running my house water for that length of time and being soooo close to water can i not just do this step with the boat strapped to the trailer with the moter in the water?
then let it sit for a hour and drop her in and go for the "run it like i stole it" clean out run? (also you say to add stabilizes but its already in the tank.

also as i asked is there any way to measure the flow of the water pump?
keith

 

[roscoe]

Re: 96 120 force low water pump pressure

Running a multi carb engine dry of fuel is not a good idea, and an absolutely needless risk to take.

I have also never seen or heard of anyone using antifreeze in an outboard.
They are self draining, so if you lower the motor and let the water drain out, there is no reason to run antifreeze thru it.
A waste of time and money.

These water pumps are NOT vacuum pumps, they are displacement pumps.
They WILL NOT suck up water, certainly will not suck up thicker anti freeze.
Positive water pressure must be supplied if the pump is not submerged.


Water pressure can be measured by installing a water pressure gauge kit.
It will read approximately 3-4 psi at idle, 10 psi at 3500 rpm, and 12-16 psi at full throttle.
All depending on the accuracy of the gauge, air leaks, and condition of the impeller.

Water muffs work very poorly on these motors.
You are better served buying a 30-50 gallon plastic tote and submersing the lower unit in the water, up past the height of the water pump.


"I drove it for the summer and TRUTHFULLY never
once noticing the strenght of the stream coming
out of the tell tail hole. "

You should be checking the telltale every time you start your motor, and periodically while you are driving across the water.

 

[keith1000]

Re: 96 120 force low water pump pressure

Thanks Roscoe.

 

[Jiggz]

Re: 96 120 force low water pump pressure

There are two aspects batman99 was trying to accomplish with his winterizing steps. 1) De-carboning the engine and 2) making sure the fuel left in the carbs is treated fuel and not just plain fuel-oil mix that can ruin or gum up your carbs during the winter. First you need to soak each cylinder with straight seafoam overnight by spraying into the plug holes and sit overnight. Treat your gas tank with fuel stabilizer.

The next day, start and warm up the engine on muffs. The way I de-carbon is by using straight sea foam placed in a spray bottle and sprayed directly into the carbs while revving the engine up to about 2000~2500 RPM on muffs and intermittently spraying the sea foam directly into the carbs (need to move carb covers if necessary). Start slow and increase slowly without killing engine. You should see heavy black smoke. Continue on until it lightens or becomes white (usually within 5 minutes of de-carboning). Stop the spraying and idle the engine for about a minute to normalize lubrication. Stop the engine and when cool enough, remove the plugs again and now spray fogging oil into each cylinder and and replace the plugs.

Three were accomplished: de-carbon, replaced remaining fuel-oil mix with stabil treated fuel in the carbs and fogging oil for storage. Not to mention the remaining fuel oil in the tank is also treated fuel.