Accident or "premeditated negligence"?

[QC]

Possibly our wisest member here, JB, mentioned in another DC thread that:

There is no such thing as an accident. There is only premeditated negligence

I actually lean toward agreeing with that statement although it is a little too black and white. I guess most insurance adjusters would agree also, but do you really believe there is no such thing as an accident?

What about a grapefruit size hailstone falling through your windshield while traveling otherwise safely at 55 MPH and you are killed causing your car to careen out of control into oncoming traffic and you kill three people and a dog? Terrible accident? Or "premeditated negligence" because you should not have been driving with thunderstorms in the forecast . . . I for one think there are other much clearer examples and don't think I like the idea of living in such a black and white, cold world even though Mrs. QC thinks that's exactly where I live. Thoughts? Comments? Examples of truly "accidental accidents"? . . . Hmmmmmm

 

[Limited-Time]

Re: Accident or "premeditated negligence"?

Wild life VS auto encounters.......traveling posted speed limit in optimal conditions......in your Beam'r....when BAM...............a deer runs right into the rear quarter panel .....unless the wild life can be charged with negligence......................thats a tough one for me to swallow.

 

[QC]

Re: Accident or "premeditated negligence"?

Hopefully JB will chime in, but the original Highway builder should've installed a deer proof fence . . . He/she/they sould've anticipated the deer crossing the road along with any chickens, hence, "premeditated negligence" . . .

 

[tommays]

Re: Accident or "premeditated negligence"?

Well

I lost my left shoulder (it is rebuilt now but not the same)to a high performance all weather mountain bike braking system with a HIGH DEGREE OF MODULATION

This is right out the owners manual


It turns out that the pad material built up particles from the aluminum rims when used in wet conditions ,upon drying out a short time later they stick to the rims becoming parking brakes


This was a well known SECRET fact as there were MANY lawsuits before i was a victim

 

[QC]

Re: Accident or "premeditated negligence"?

Sounds like "gross negligence" ^^^^^

 

[Limited-Time]

Re: Accident or "premeditated negligence"?

Hopefully JB will chime in, but the original Highway builder should've installed a deer proof fence . . . He/she/they sould've anticipated the deer crossing the road along with any chickens, hence, "premeditated negligence" . . .

Said Highway builder stated "The fence originally permitted, slated for build and the funds allocated"...........................however an emergency gov. ruling forbid the erection of any fencing or devices that would hinder or impede the natural movement of wild life along existing migration routs.

 

[JB]

Re: Accident or "premeditated negligence"?

Negligence, or carelessness, is not always gross. It is sometimes calculated, but very small risk.

Anytime I drive I accept a small risk of being attacked by Bambi. When I drove at night in rural areas the risk was quite a lot higher, but it was still a calculated risk. By deciding to drive anyway I neglect the risk (negligence). I have been attacked by Bambi's mom when driving at night. Broke my heart, but it was the result of my premeditated negligence.

We all make decisions to neglect risk every day. Most of the time the risk is small and our neglect of the risk (negligence) doesn't bite us, but in the thread QC mentions the risk was great. . .lives were at stake. How much negligence, and by whom, is not at all clear, but it is clear that someone's negligence got a man killed.

 

[Labman]

Re: Accident or "premeditated negligence"?

I was the passenger in a 1tn. cube van, travelling down the highway at about 45mph. Narrow 2 lane blacktop, 50mph. speed limit. Nice sunny afternoon, calm, bluebird sky, when a freaken Great Horned Owl hit the driverside of the windshield. Now a northern GHO, was a wing span of about 6', the driver is blinded by the impact, but is compenent enough to hit the ditch instead of verring into on coming traffic. Totaled the van!
I guess the Owl must have thought (premeditated) it out ahead of time?

 

[QC]

Re: Accident or "premeditated negligence"?

Well I think that is the point of this thread. To what level do you take personal responsibility? JB, what level did you mean? BTW, Labman, have you heard of the "Birds of Prey don't kill 'em or else Federal law"?

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: Accident or "premeditated negligence"?

I saw a simillar accident in an airplane, Labman - a guy hit a goose while on final approach for landing. The bird penetrated the windshield on the pilot's side, injuring him severely. Fortunately, he had been teaching his son to fly and the son was able to complete the landing from the co-pilot's position.

In some areas, you really have to be on your toes while flying at low altitude. This is especially true of areas where there are wetlands or garbage dumps. That said, there is only so much you can do to avoid the birds.

 

[Drowned Rat]

Re: Accident or "premeditated negligence"?

Perhaps the two terms are not mutually exclusive.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/accident

 

[JB]

Re: Accident or "premeditated negligence"?

I guess the Owl must have thought (premeditated) it out ahead of time?

Well, yes. The owl accepted the small risk that a vehicle would hit him/her, and the driver accepted the very small risk that an owl would fly into the windshield. My point is that neither are at all blameless.

The risk that a very unlikely event will happen is still a risk, and if we ignore it we are negligent.

My point might be said like this: We are not victims. We place ourselves in harm's way either by neglecting risk or by ignorance, which is from negligence to be informed about risk.

What level of risk am I talking about? Any level. We all neglect small risk every day in order to gain some goal. If we avoided all risk nothing would happen because we would die trying to avoid risk of poisoning ourselves by eating.

In Management theory there is a concept called risk/payoff analysis in which a manager balances the worst that could happen against the best that could happen from a particular negligent decision.

For an example, let's take an event called "Scary" in a recent post in SHT. A non-swimmer passenger did not wear a PFD. As a matter of fact it seems nobody was wearing a PFD while underweigh.

risk: dead passenger (worst thing that could happen)
payoff: passenger would be more comfortable (best thing that could happen)

Those don't balance very well, now do they? The passenger was thrown into the water and freaked, followed by another, worse neglect decision: several other people not wearing PFDs jumped in to try to save her adding greatly to the worst thing that could happen. The worst came very close to happening.

At the other end of the spectrum are risks that we will trip and fall down the front steps balanced by the possible consequences of never leaving the house.

It is all about decisions we make, folks. We are not victims of chance but challengers of chance. Some decisions are good ones, low risk/high payoff. Other decisions are just plain stupid, high risk/little or no payoff, like risking death to be more comfortable.

 

[Limited-Time]

Re: Accident or "premeditated negligence"?

JB...................The only thing I would challenge in your theory is the terminology.................If I knowingly and willingly accept the risk factors while navigating through life as a reasonably prudent person........................negligence as defined by MW does not apply. See below.............Just my .02 pents





Main Entry:neg?li?gence Pronunciation: \ˈne-gli-jən(t)s\ Function:noun Date:14th century 1 a: the quality or state of being negligent b: failure to exercise the care that a reasonably prudent person would exercise in like circumstances2: an act or instance of being negligent

 

[tommays]

Re: Accident or "premeditated negligence"?

The auto windshield is and excellent example of risks Vs rewards.

We could clearly be better protected buy a thicker one BUT it has been accepted that the current thickness standard meets good balance between cost Vs protection


In larger aircraft were the risk is much higher they have gone with much thicker ones that will survive bird strikes

 

[JB]

Re: Accident or "premeditated negligence"?

You make a good point, LT. But where do you draw a line between what is thought to be acceptable risk/payoff (or risk/reward) decisions (reasonably prudent) and unacceptable, or negligent, decisions??

I don't draw a line between prudence and negligence. I see them both as areas on a continuum of risk/reward decisions.

Young people seem to make a lot of high risk/low reward decisions, and then as we age we become more and more prudent (or less negligent, if you will) because we see the risks as real, while the young often don't believe that the risk is there at all.

 

[gonefishie]

Re: Accident or "premeditated negligence"?

To me, negligence is when you ignore risks/consequences that is well known and well understood and inevitable. Weaving in and out of traffic, drunk driving, play with fire, etc...is negligence. Bumped the knife on the counter, it fell off the counter and pierced your foot. That is an accident because you never, ever planned or premeditated to have a knife stuck to your foot. Let me guess, you will say that is negligence because you neglected to wear shoes, but what if the point of the knife went right through the shoe. Is it negligence if you don't wear steel toe shoes to walk around the house?

 

[mike64]

Re: Accident or "premeditated negligence"?

You make a good point, LT. But where do you draw a line between what is thought to be acceptable risk/payoff (or risk/reward) decisions (reasonably prudent) and unacceptable, or negligent, decisions??

I don't draw a line between prudence and negligence. I see them both as areas on a continuum of risk/reward decisions.

Young people seem to make a lot of high risk/low reward decisions, and then as we age we become more and more prudent (or less negligent, if you will) because we see the risks as real, while the young often don't believe that the risk is there at all.

As I read through the thread, I was going to make LT's exact point until I saw he beat me to it. I think this thread is breaking down at two definitions of the term 'negligent'.

I think I see JB's argument-- he's using the term 'negligent' not in a judgmental or legal sense, he's using the word a little more broadly than most people understand it, to describe his philosophy that life is a spectrum of risk/reward decisions.

But I would say there is a legal sense of 'negligent', in which there IS a line to be drawn. Cops and judges have to draw that line every day.

 

[Labman]

Re: Accident or "premeditated negligence"?

J.B.
"Well, yes. The owl accepted the small risk that a vehicle would hit him/her, and the driver accepted the very small risk that an owl would fly into the windshield. My point is that neither are at all blameless"

Your statement would give the Owl the ability to reason, besides Man there are only a very small number of Primates with this ability.

I can see and appreciate, where you are going with the driver accepting the risk/risks. As stated all we do from the moment we are born is unconsciously process and determine risks and consequences of our actions, based on our fear of being injured/imprisoned. It is indeed common knowledge, that the one thing we are unable to teach/learn is simple common sense, this is where I have a problem with the "premeditated negligence" statement, the original topic was about the lack of Common Sense, (inability to swim, maybe I should wear a uncomfortable, restrictive, lifesaving device -nah I'll be OK.)

I don't know that there is a Premeditated Lack of Common Sense, perhaps this could be a new form of legalese.

Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, my client is innocent, due to his/her lack of premeditated common sense!

 

[QC]

Re: Accident or "premeditated negligence"?

Now this is the debate I envisioned . . . I agree, JB's use of negligence is probably a little too severe. Maybe literally correct, but as compared to common usage, well . . . uh . . . it causes people to start threads like this one . . .

I was told when I was very young that I was responsible for everything that happened to me. I have been contemplating that ever since and it is a very important concept for children and victims to consider. I would suggest that there are lots of exceptions. One of the most troubling is victims of Child abuse. Maybe in that case they are responsible for recovering as I just cannot blame that type of victim . . .

gonefishie, I think you have missed the most obvious, and it is the type of thing I preach around boats, homes, etc. The negligence happened when the knife was left out . . .

 

[JB]

Re: Accident or "premeditated negligence"?

I think I see JB's argument-- he's using the term 'negligent' not in a judgmental or legal sense, he's using the word a little more broadly than most people understand it, to describe his philosophy that life is a spectrum of risk/reward decisions.

Exactly, Mike. In my mind "negligence" is the act of consciously neglecting risk in order to achieve some rewarding consequence. It is not restricted to large risks and trivial rewards.

Labman: Throughout our history we have denied other creatures respect for their mental abilities. We do not know that owls are entirely instinctive creatures, we simply haven't discovered the extent of their reasoning so we deny its existence. Persons who have owls as pets would strongly disagree with you.

Most abused children are unaware that they have any other options. They don't recognize risk so they haven't the option to neglect those risks. The logic is very complex, but is shared by abused women who refuse to remove themselves from the situation. They view risks of running away as more terrifying than staying, so they neglect the risks in staying to avoid the risks they perceive in removing themselves. Truly a heart wrenching phenomenon, but they are making the decisions and are "responsible" for the consequences.