Allow me to play devils advocate for a minute

[Kenneth Brown]

Coming home from a fireworks display tonight I was full of patritism. Radio was playing good ol American songs so the feeling was real strong. It got me to thinking. If the grand ol US of A was attacked by a foriegn country what would you do? For those of us who can not enlist due to medical reasons/age/etc what would you do? If the enemy troops were close by and you had the knowledge amd materials to build a bomb to kill them would you? I know for me that is exactly what I would be doing. How about you? You too huh, I thought we thought the same. Now the devils advocate part- Why do we blame the people in Iraq who are doing the very same thing? This is not a troll, its not a "Bush did/ didn't do it", and not anti-American. Its just a thought that ran through my head on the way home. Anybody got some spare lithium I can have?

 

[ob]

Re: Allow me to play devils advocate for a minute

That's why as the old saying goes"war is hell" initiated and strategized by arm chair warriors on each side for varying reasons.The citizens are simply caught up in it all and most if not many on both fronts are loyal to their sides cause.Or something like that.

 

[Link]

Re: Allow me to play devils advocate for a minute

Didn't take it for a troll either.
You’re thought as put, I would agree.
However it isn't (never is) that simple.
We and the Iraqi people are fighting insurgents who are not even from Iraq.
My thoughts on it.

Glad you had a good 4th.
9:30 pm west coast and things are just kicking off.
Kits arn't happy about all the bangs!

 

[JustMrWill]

Re: Allow me to play devils advocate for a minute

K Brown,
Kind of a rude awakening. Here we are, the "land of the free"...freedom of speech...freedom of religion and beliefs. We "say" that every country has the right to rule themselves..and develop their own politics...as long as they are in line with ours. 230 years ago...our fore-fathers were the terrorists in England's eyes. It is all a matter of perception. I, in no way, support the terrorists...but if you actually listen to what "most" are saying...its.. "leave us alone...get out of our country and let us run it how we want to."

Lets play the "what if" game:

Canada sees all the poverty in America. It sees all the crime. It sees the abuse of power by the wealthy. Canada say "America needs help!!! We need to intervine to save all the poor, hungry, abused, over-worked, under-paid people of America." Canada invades us...kills\captures the ranking members of government and military...finds President Bush hiding in a bunker at his Texas ranch. Puts them all on trial for crimes against humanity. Who is right? Canada honestly believes it is "for our own good"...but do we? Would we fight back any way we could?

As I said...it's a matter of perception. We feel that OUR way of doing business is the best...so therefore EVERYBODY should be like us...right? I am sure England thought that THEIR way was the right way...and I am sure that the Iraqis have their own idea of how to run THEIR country. I am also sure that we will keep forcing our way of life down their throats until they conform...resistance is futile. It will only cost us a few soldier's lives daily for the next ? years.

I am not trying to get into a flame war about the president's choice to go to war..etc...just like you said...just something to ponder over.

-JMW

 

[Parrott_head]

Re: Allow me to play devils advocate for a minute

KB,

In WWII there was much done by the French Resistence, the Dutch Underground and Norweigian Underground against the Wehrmacht and SS troops of Germany. I remember reading some about attacks on Allied Troops after the surrender of the Axis powers.

I'm not certain but I think there are two classes of "clandestined" fighters at work in Iraq. One is a citizen of Iraq who feels that we have been there long enough. His motivation could be either he wants to gain control or simple revenge against us.
The other would be the imported bomber who sees us as an enemy of Islam and wants to rid their culture of our influence. I think none of the first class would be of a mind to travel to the US and do us harm and only a small percentage of the second type would do so.

The Germans were never able to stop the attacks by the French Resistence and they tried some very vicious, brutal ways of defeating them. Ways that we as a civilized soceity cannot even contemplate.

The only answer to me at this point is to quickly train as many Iraqi citizens as we can to fill the vacuum when we leave. However if at some point in time it is decided that there is no hope of ever forming an effective Iraqi defense that we ought to get on out. How do you make that determination? I don't know but I would love to hear Collin Powells' opinion on the matter.

 

[Kenneth Brown]

Re: Allow me to play devils advocate for a minute

Interesting views and I agree with all of them. Mr Will hit right on my thoughts perfectly. Have a safe 4th everyone, and remember those who have died keeping us free.

 

[SS MAYFLOAT]

Re: Allow me to play devils advocate for a minute

I watched the Macy's New York fireworks display last night on TV. WOW, it was awesome to say the least. After about a half hour of it, my wife looks over and sees some tears running down my cheek. Of course she asked me what was wrong. I said nothing, I'm just caught up in the patriotism of the whole thing.

Just knowing all this was brought together by our fathers of generations ago is awesome. There is nothing like a young country that has the strength and courage to maintain and keep its freedom alive. Regardless of the politics and controversay, we must stay united. God Bless all those that fight or have fought to keep us free. Thanks KB!

 

[WillyBWright]

Re: Allow me to play devils advocate for a minute

If the atackers happened to be the Swedish Ladies Volleyball Team, I'd let them take over!

One man's Terrorist is another man's Freedom Fighter. Back when Afghans were attacked by Russia, they were Freedom Fighters. Now that US is the agresssor, they're Terrorists. Go figure. It's that double-standard that pissed off Usamma and began this whole mess.

As a father, my first duty is to protect my young children. Could mean fleeing, could mean killing anyone that messed with us. Sorry, father first, patriot second.

 

[JB]

Re: Allow me to play devils advocate for a minute

I, too, would harrass troops of an invading country unless they were here to get rid of a bad government system (which we don't have) and put me and my fellow citizens in power. Then I would probably cooperate with them.

I would definitely not blow up my fellow Americans in numbers far greater than any "enemy".

So the comparison is flawed. The assumptions about the terrorist's motives are wrong.

I don't buy the myth that those people are Iraqis trying to eject an invader any more than I buy the myth that the VC were South Vietnamese revolting. In both cases we have a covert campaign planned, organized, equipped and supported by a foreign power (or powers) seeking to take over the country. Like the VC, they are murdering their "countrymen" in huge numbers.

One difference. The VC murdered with some logic.

 

[ricksrster]

Re: Allow me to play devils advocate for a minute

It was the citizens of the colonies that defeated the best best army in the world. Lexington and Concord shows how determined people can be to protect their liberty. When people are free, someone will try to take it away from them time to time. It is the responsibility of the free people to defend the freedom.
We should always remember the great men like Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Payne, Patrick Henry, etc.

 

[rottenray6402]

Re: Allow me to play devils advocate for a minute

This makes you stop and think alright. I dont' think we can do a comparison between the US and other countries unless may be Canada so as far as saying what we would do depends on different factors. If we were in a country that had been under the iron rule of dictators and all of that I would welcome a democratic intervention, however as things stand if we were invaded by China or Iraq or one one of those I would be on hillsides with my Browning ABolt- 223 picking off their officers. In Iraq and the former Soviet Union people were hauled off to prisons and tortured and murdered. These things don't' happen in America so I would have to say any invaders were going to make things worse so I would fight for our way of life. I think what a lot of people aren't' looking at is most of the people in those areas in the middle east don't' know any life other than being under harsh rule. In answer to your question, I believe the USA is the greatest country on earth and we have the best standard of living so yes, I would fight any one that tries to take that away.

 

[KRS]

Re: Allow me to play devils advocate for a minute

bombs kill indiscriminately.... I would take up my rifle and leave the bombs alone.

 

[txswinner]

Re: Allow me to play devils advocate for a minute

JB, What if some of the fellow citizens were cooperating and enabling the insurgents, oops invaders. Just a thought, might then blow them up as well.

Ken, this has been my thought since this started. Not to hijack but what would your children be learning about the invaders and if your daughter saw your brother or a grandparent or YOU killed by the invaders what do you think her future would include. Yeah, scary thought for me also.

These issues will not be faced by old farts like me but by children in our country who are 9-15 today.

 

[JB]

Re: Allow me to play devils advocate for a minute

I think I covered that TXS. As I said, if the invaders were seeking to install a government of liberty and freedom to replace a despotic regime I would cooperate with them and expect them to leave when the new government was strong enough to handle its affairs.

If, on the other hand, the invaders were seeking to eliminate our current government and install, for example, a theocratic and repressive government I would fight them and anyone helping them to the death.

What if they killed my children or grandbuddies? That would depend on their objectives. All wars include collateral casualties. What I said above would stand.

 

[txswinner]

Re: Allow me to play devils advocate for a minute

JB, You and I have the good fortune of knowledge and information to make those decisions we would make, I am not so sure those folks in Iraq want what you and I think they should want. Not all think like us. In fact, I do not know anyone who would stick dynamite up their rear and light it for any cause.

 

[PW2]

Re: Allow me to play devils advocate for a minute

That also assumes that informed logic plays a part in decisions. Once you throw religion into the mix, logic tends to take a back seat.

I saw a good movie the other day called "Paradise Now" that tracked the mindset of a suicide bomber in Palestine.

If you believe what they are taught to believe, it can make some sense. Not all of them do, of course, but enough to make an effect

 

[Link]

Re: Allow me to play devils advocate for a minute

That also assumes that informed logic plays a part in decisions. Once you throw religion into the mix, logic tends to take a back seat.

It's a little off Kens topic but your 100% correct.
Brain washing is a powerfull tool!

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Allow me to play devils advocate for a minute

on both sides its a powerful tool.
most americans have no idea how much killing pain and carnage the US has done clandestinly in the name of oil(national security) lumber and a few other coperate intrests.
if ya ever leave the border and study history from the other side you see 2 things. one is the average american is a good person. two is our govt has mucked it up badly by bowing to corperate greed.

 

[--GQ--]

Re: Allow me to play devils advocate for a minute

on both sides its a powerful tool.
most americans have no idea how much killing pain and carnage the US has done clandestinely in the name of oil(national security) lumber and a few other coperate intrests.
if ay ever leave the border and study history from the other side you see 2 things. one is the average american is a good person. two is our govt has mucked it up badly by bowing to corperate greed.

Well said Professor. Until we step out the box, the big picture will remain blurry. An open mind and a corse in World History should do the trick.

Nationalism is a gene passed on in the human trait. One does not need a reason to rebel when a foreign force is identified. The will to fight is never greater whether here or anywhere on Earth.

 

[txswinner]

Re: Allow me to play devils advocate for a minute

Whoa, you two, are you saying there is more than "our" side of this whole story. Yes our government has overstepped its bounds in many ways and if not taken back over by the people its days are numbered.

This is not just for this administration but we must get control of our country again or it shall perish.