Alpha One Gen II Question---- Electrical problem

[Splat]

Re: Alpha One Gen II Question---- Electrical problem

Further more, I'll assume you are somewhat comfortable with electricity considering you said you pulled the panel in the boat.

If the problem is present in the house panel WITH THE BOAT DISCONNECTED you'll need to isolate if its your circuit or the one coming into the house from the power company.

To check that, kill the mains in the house panel. Switch your meter to ohms and start checking

Neutral to ground should be very low resistance

Hot to neutral should read open or close to it, as should hot to ground.

Test hot on the de-energized side of the main breakers only. If your not following what I'm getting at here call a electrician. You can blow up your meter and get hurt if you run power through the ohms setting on your meter.

 

[Firemedic724]

Re: Alpha One Gen II Question---- Electrical problem

That is great information. I appreciate all of your help. I did bench test the panel connecting to a three prong cord and I did not get 20 volts at the water heater circuit. The reading was 3 volts with the switch turned off. I am going to try and fire up my portable standby generator and connect the shore power cord to it and see if any change occurs.

 

[Firemedic724]

Re: Alpha One Gen II Question---- Electrical problem

Further more, I'll assume you are somewhat comfortable with electricity considering you said you pulled the panel in the boat.

If the problem is present in the house panel WITH THE BOAT DISCONNECTED you'll need to isolate if its your circuit or the one coming into the house from the power company.

To check that, kill the mains in the house panel. Switch your meter to ohms and start checking

Neutral to ground should be very low resistance

Hot to neutral should read open or close to it, as should hot to ground.

Test hot on the de-energized side of the main breakers only. If your not following what I'm getting at here call a electrician. You can blow up your meter and get hurt if you run power through the ohms setting on your meter.

O! I just finished up for the day. This is what I have come up with. I reconnected the shore power cable to the boat from the house after checking the plug with a self tester. it was fine. I went in to the boat eith the tester and all three lights lit up on the tester. The tester does not have an explanation for all three lights?? The reverse polarity light lit up on my panel in the boat. Now here is the weird thing. I attached photos of the voltage meter reading. I am getting 76 volts at the voltage meter and I checked the voltage coming in to the panel at the shore power wire. i am getting 120Volts. Can the panel meter be messed up? Why is the reverse polarity light on? I am borrowing my buddies shore power cable with his adapter and going to try that. i don't know what else to do? Any ideas would much be appreciated. you guys have been great!

 

[NYBo]

Re: Alpha One Gen II Question---- Electrical problem

All three light up, eh? That's got to be from your stray voltage.

Check your shore power cable to ensure you have no shorts between any of the conductors. Check the shore power connector on the boat for any moisture, loose wire strands, etc.

 

[glenn property of pam]

Re: Alpha One Gen II Question---- Electrical problem

76 volts ground to live or 76v neutral to live.

76 ground to live means the ground is not connected/poor connection between the test point or boat panel and your house (this takes in to account that the house when the boat plugged in is not also doing the same meaning you have a problem in the main incoming panel of the house). forgot to add this also means that you have a electrical item trying to use the ground

76 neutral to live means the neutral is not connected/poor connection between the test point or boat panel and the house

76 volts on ground or neutral means you are loosing 34 volts which is enoght to kill ya and you either do not have a gfci or its not working on the house

please disconnect the plug to the boat

p.s 3 lights indicates a condition outside the normal as its designed to test for wiring errors where this is most proberly a poor connection as some voltage is still making it back thus you are reading 76 volts instead of 0 or 110v

This should be a quick call out for a electricain to find and correct

 

[UncleWillie]

Re: Alpha One Gen II Question---- Electrical problem

The tester is a simple device with 3 neon bulbs connecting each of the leads to the other two.

Common(WHT) and Ground(GRN) are connected together back at the fuse panel in the house.
The Green continues to a 10 foot rod stuck in the ground somewhere near your electric meter. (The Ground Rod.)

The Hot(BLK) to Common and the Hot to Ground lamps should light. (YELLOWS on the Tester)
If the Common and Hot are swapped somewhere,
the Ground to Common (Reverse Polarity/RED on the tester) Lamp will light.
The impossible situation of all three lamps lighting can only happen if the Common and Ground are no longer connected together.

Everything points to a floating ground somewhere.
That is why you are seeing silly float voltages like 76v.
You no longer have a reference ground to measure against.

Start at the the shore power connector and confirm that you are getting good power from the house.

Do not assume the household power is good either.
If you lost the connection to the ground rod under your electric meter, all bets are off.
You won't be getting shocked in the house because you can't put your foot on damp soil in your living room.

Working on the boat and finding bogus values means nothing until you find a spot where they are good and then work downstream until you find the location that they go bad.

 

[Firemedic724]

Re: Alpha One Gen II Question---- Electrical problem

The tester is a simple device with 3 neon bulbs connecting each of the leads to the other two.

Common(WHT) and Ground(GRN) are connected together back at the fuse panel in the house.
The Green continues to a 10 foot rod stuck in the ground somewhere near your electric meter. (The Ground Rod.)

The Hot(BLK) to Common and the Hot to Ground lamps should light. (YELLOWS on the Tester)
If the Common and Hot are swapped somewhere,
the Ground to Common (Reverse Polarity/RED on the tester) Lamp will light.
The impossible situation of all three lamps lighting can only happen if the Common and Ground are no longer connected together.

Everything points to a floating ground somewhere.
That is why you are seeing silly float voltages like 76v.
You no longer have a reference ground to measure against.

Start at the the shore power connector and confirm that you are getting a good power from the house.

Do not assume the household power is good either.
If you lost the connection to the ground rod under your electric meter, all bets are off.
You won't be getting shocked in the house because you can't put your foot on damp soil in your living room.

Working on the boat and finding bogus values means nothing until you find a spot where they are good and then work downstream until you find the location that they go bad.

I am getting a solid 120V to the boat panel. The measurement was taken right off the wires from the shore cable connector. I switch on the water heater switch and I am getting 120V at the hot water heater connector. I still can't understand why the boat voltage meter is reading 76 volts?
Thank You for your help, I truly appreciate your knowledge.

 

[UncleWillie]

Re: Alpha One Gen II Question---- Electrical problem

I am getting a solid 120V to the boat panel. The measurement was taken right off the wires from the shore cable connector. I switch on the water heater switch and I am getting 120V at the hot water heater connector. I still can't understand why the boat voltage meter is reading 76 volts?
Thank You for your help, I truly appreciate your knowledge.

The measurements still needs qualifiers.
Where EXACTLY were the measurements taken?

Are you measuring the 120 volts from Hot(Black) to Common(White)???
What are you measuring from Hot To Ground(Green)?
What are you measuring from Common to Ground?

What is the boat plugged in to? Residential House power? Marina Shore Power?
3 or 4 pin receptacle? 120, 240 or 2x120 paralleled circuits.
Using any adapter cable pigtails?

These may seem like redundant questions, but from 1000 miles away,
it is all we have to go on without being able to see the specifics of the wiring.

 

[Firemedic724]

Re: Alpha One Gen II Question---- Electrical problem

I am measuring white to black at the panel where the main shore power attaches to the panel. I get 120 volts. I am using the normal shore power three pin cable connected to an adapter that has a three pin female to a 110 / 120 volt house plug. I plugged the cable into the house plug that is a gfci receptacle. The panel meter has two terminals. I just used the same test meter to measure the voltage at the panel meter. I get 76 volts when I check the voltage across the two terminals. I have noticed this before when I plugged the cable in to my generator while on the water. When I plug my shore power cable with no adapter into the marina power everything is fine. I get normal power at the panel and normal voltage reading on the panel meter. The reverse polarity light does not light up and every thing is perfect. I am confused.

 

[Firemedic724]

Re: Alpha One Gen II Question---- Electrical problem

I am measuring white to black at the panel where the main shore power attaches to the panel. I get 120 volts. I am using the normal shore power three pin cable connected to an adapter that has a three pin female to a 110 / 120 volt house plug. I plugged the cable into the house plug that is a gfci receptacle. The panel meter has two terminals. I just used the same test meter to measure the voltage at the panel meter. I get 76 volts when I check the voltage across the two terminals. I have noticed this before when I plugged the cable in to my generator while on the water. When I plug my shore power cable with no adapter into the marina power everything is fine. I get normal power at the panel and normal voltage reading on the panel meter. The reverse polarity light does not light up and every thing is perfect. I am confused.

I was doing some more research today and found this quote from a marine electrical technician's website:

We also advise against ever using the three-pronger household type adapters as this type of connector is highly unreliable and prone to causing system faults and fires. Only the twist-lock type connector is suitable.

Could the adapter be causing the reverse polarity light to activate?

 

[glenn property of pam]

Re: Alpha One Gen II Question---- Electrical problem

kinda sounds like the boat volt meter is hooked between live and ground.

 

[Firemedic724]

Re: Alpha One Gen II Question---- Electrical problem

kinda sounds like the boat volt meter is hooked between live and ground.

Ok! So I spoke to a couple of electricians and they all seem to be on the same page. Here is what they think is happening. Since the boat is on boat stands out of the water and while hooked up to the house current, the boat is looking for a ground so when I touch the outdrives I am making the ground. This explains why I have no problems while the boat is in the water hooked up to the marina. The water is acting as the ground completing the circuit. I am going to hook up a ground wire from the outdrives to the house ground rod and see if that cancels out the reverse polarity light and gives me the correct reading on the voltmeter in the boat. Does this make sense? I have an electrician coming out to run a bunch of tests on the electrical system Thursday.

 

[Grandad]

Re: Alpha One Gen II Question---- Electrical problem

Hey Fire, I think that you have more than one incorrect or failing connection.
Firstly, if the ground conductor is intact throughout, you shouldn't get a tingle from the outdrive to ground.
Secondly, the ground reference in AC distribution systems only carries current when there is a failure elsewhere. This could be a short between hot and ground such as at your water heater element. It could also be a broken neutral connection anywhere back to the utility's transformer such that current normally carried by the neutral is being carried by the grounding system.

I think that the only reason that you could get all 3 indicator lights on is when there is a measurable voltage between neutral and ground. Neutral and ground should be solidly connected together at your service panel and at the utility transformer. Since you mentioned that the circuit is GFCI protected, but the GFCI didn't apparently trip, either it is defective, incorrectly wired, or there is a failure in the system supplying it that has made it inoperative.

You're doing the right thing by having an electrician find the problem. Don't launch until you know exactly what the problem was, after it's corrected. As mentioned previously, the way things are now, your setup is a hazard to yourself and anyone else in the marina. - Grandad

 

[UncleWillie]

Re: Alpha One Gen II Question---- Electrical problem

Ok! So I spoke to a couple of electricians and they all seem to be on the same page. Here is what they think is happening. Since the boat is on boat stands out of the water and while hooked up to the house current, the boat is looking for a ground so when I touch the out drives I am making the ground. This explains why I have no problems while the boat is in the water hooked up to the marina. The water is acting as the ground completing the circuit...

This is Insanity!!!

If you are using the water to complete the ground.
You are going to disintegrate your zincs, and the zincs of all the boats around you.
You are going to corrode your out-drive at an accelerated rate.
AND you are going to electrocute any one in the water near the boat!
YOU Damn near electrocuted yourself when you touched the out-drive.
You need to realize this is deadly serious and must be fixed!

The pigtail adapter carries the ground through to the boat.
It is just an adapter if wired correctly.

NOW! Let's get serious!

The house outlet is officially designated as a NEMA 5-15.
The Smaller Blade is HOT
The larger Blade is NEUTRAL.
The Round pin is GROUND.

Take your meter to the House Outlet and measure the voltages. SERIOUSLY!

HOT to NEUTRAL = _____ ?
HOT to GROUND = _______ ?
NEUTRAL to GROUND = ______?

The other end of the pigtail is likely a NEMA L5-30 (if it Isn't, Speak up)
The Bent Blade is GROUND
The Larger Blade is HOT
The smaller Blade is NEUTRAL

Attach the pigtail to the House Outlet and measure the voltages.

HOT to NEUTRAL = _____ ?
HOT to GROUND = _______ ?
NEUTRAL to GROUND = ______?

The Shore Power Cable is Just an Extension Cord with a NEMA L5-30 on each end.
Now attach the shore power cable to the adapter and measure the voltages.

HOT to NEUTRAL = _____ ?
HOT to GROUND = _______ ?
NEUTRAL to GROUND = ______?

When we get the results we can move forward from there.

 

[Firemedic724]

Re: Alpha One Gen II Question---- Electrical problem

Thanks. I will do it tomorrow. I'm a fireman not an electrician so I have no clue. LOL. That's why I hired an electrician. I will post the results tomorrow after I get off shift.

 

[UncleWillie]

Re: Alpha One Gen II Question---- Electrical problem

... I am going to hook up a ground wire from the outdrives to the house ground rod and see if that cancels out the reverse polarity light and gives me the correct reading on the voltmeter in the boat. Does this make sense? ...

Be sure there is a fuse in that wire.
If the Hot and Ground are swapped, there is going to be a Fire Ball when you make that connection.
Measure the voltage between the outdrives and the Ground Rod first.

 

[glenn property of pam]

Re: Alpha One Gen II Question---- Electrical problem

Ok! So I spoke to a couple of electricians and they all seem to be on the same page. Here is what they think is happening. Since the boat is on boat stands out of the water and while hooked up to the house current, the boat is looking for a ground so when I touch the outdrives I am making the ground. This explains why I have no problems while the boat is in the water hooked up to the marina. The water is acting as the ground completing the circuit. I am going to hook up a ground wire from the outdrives to the house ground rod and see if that cancels out the reverse polarity light and gives me the correct reading on the voltmeter in the boat. Does this make sense? I have an electrician coming out to run a bunch of tests on the electrical system Thursday.

lol i hope thats not what was happening. The dock you use does not require the use of the adapter which may be the problem. grandads post #34 is honestly the second best way to track the problem and is the same way the electricain (best idea) will find the problem. The reverse wiring light is connected between neutral and ground so when the light comes on dim then its a good sign that the ground is not made and something is bleeding from it to the neutral. The gfci should cut power at 6 milliamps a human can sense electricity at under 1 ma so the gfci needs testing and the electricain will be able to test the gfci and it may need replacing. It would be a good idea to get a gfci tester it looks like the recepitcal tester you have but has a gfci test button built into it as you should always test the gfci's before using them.
I dont want to see you get chewed out over not understanding the risk which is why gfci's were invented and required by code (just a shame the stupied little things fail yet they indicate they are working just fine). Im sure as a fireman you have seen people playing with fire with out understanding the real risk.

 

[Firemedic724]

Re: Alpha One Gen II Question---- Electrical problem

I know my limitations and electricity to me is a science that I leave to the professional's. Where would the ground be connected for the ac on my boat. I found the green ground cable from the main ac panel and I understand it is connected to the hull. Is there a ground pad molded in the hull somewhere. I would gather that it would be in the engine compartment somewhere. Am I correct to think so? Thanks for all the help.

 

[UncleWillie]

Re: Alpha One Gen II Question---- Electrical problem

... Where would the ground be connected for the ac on my boat. I found the green ground cable from the main ac panel and I understand it is connected to the hull. Is there a ground pad molded in the hull somewhere. I would gather that it would be in the engine compartment somewhere. Am I correct to think so? ...

No!

The Green Ground wire from the shore power is connected to all the metal parts on the boat whether they touch the water or not. I makes no difference. and is not a necessity or a requirement.
In your particular case, The "Ground PADs" to the water are the Outdrives, but only by circumstance.
Everything that is grounded should find a path back to the Power panel ground and ultimately the ground Rod and the soil of the planet Earth.

If you do not want to continue, OK.
It is most likely the Adapter PigTail is mis-wired.
As a minimum, Ohm Hot to Hot, Neutral to Neutral, and Ground to Ground on the Pigtail adapter to confirm.
A lot cheaper that the electrician is going to be.

 

[Firemedic724]

Re: Alpha One Gen II Question---- Electrical problem

So where does the green wire from the ac panel go?