"Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

[Clams Canino]

Looking at the end of Headhunts "40hp Salvage" thread compelled me to make this post.<br /><br />His is the third time this year I've either personally seen, or read about here, of a well meaning boater taking an older Merc to an "Authorized Dealer" to the result of not only not getting the motor properly diagnosed and fixed, but of it coming out WORSE than it went in. I'm afraid the word sabotage comes to mind.<br /><br />Many "dealers" refuse to work on outboards over 10 or 15 years old, while it seems that others are using them more as an oppertunity to "upsell" someone to a newer outboard, by hook or by crook.<br /><br />If you have a "good dealer mechanic" - great. I'm not saying all dealerships are crooks. But if you have an older Merc and want it to outlive you, you need to look around for a smaller independant outboard mechanic. <br /><br />The last of the inline 4 "Super Thunderbolts" is ten years old, the last of the "Tower of Power" is 16 years old. If you have one of these motors you really need to find a mechanic that's over 40. Every area has one, usually spread by word of mouth. When I was back in NH the car guy was "Fred's Auto", The outbord guy was me. <br /><br />There are people out there that genuinely *like* the older Mercs and don't just see them as trade fodder to sell you a new outboard. Of these there is a smaller sub-set of "true desciples" such as myself, they can be identified by an ability to spell "Kiekhaefer" and explain the meaning of the term "Big Carl". If you can find a "true believer" great, but at least find someone who genuinely **likes** these critters.<br /><br />The Classic Mercs are usually saveable for a lot less than a new (junk?) outboard - IF you find out who is "Da Man" in your extended area.<br /><br />Headhunt got lucky and found me in the S.C. upstate lakes region - but it's a big country. There's a lot of small independant shops - EVERYWHERE. Find a guy you can talk to and trust.<br /><br />-W

 

[rodbolt]

Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

hello<br /> I will second what clams is saying.<br /> I used to work and love those big black towers. but like the omc stringer units I willno longer work on them. in my area they usually have to much salt damage. and most dealerships dont have techs that have worked with the older ign systems and backdrag carbs and the many linkages that must be correctly set.most the techs I go to schools with have never changed a set of points much less a system with 2 sets.<br /> i went to a ful systems school for yamaha a while back and my lab partner had been a ford tech and told me he had never had a four stroke carb apart and only 3 2 stroke carbs. but he knew EFI well. so I will somewhat second clams advice. especially if its a new dealership. just be aware that there are independant shops that also rely on luck and the poke and hope method of troubleshooting

 

[Scali]

Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

I had a 19' Chris Craft with a Cobra I/O a few years ago, you think it's hard to find someone to work on an older Merc ? <br />The many Techs on this site will know of the shifting/gear clashing issues these drives had.<br />NO ONE on Long Island would touch it !<br />I ended up hydrolocking the engine because sometimes the controls were so tight I had to shut it off in gear { not a good idea } she dieseled a little took a drink then I compressed the water in the head once , snapola LOL..<br />The deal with many older Mercs though, if you can do much of the maintence yourself { & with the help from the people here } <br />you can keep a great older OB going for many years..<br />Hopefully most of us wont need a dealer.<br />I think theres more independent OB mechanics down south then here on long Island, You Guys really seem to know your chit & do honest work !

 

[WillyBWright]

Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

Last summer I worked for an Independent, but they have strong Mercury ties. They Know Mercs! I learned a lot. They're authorized Merc as far as repairs, but don't sell boats or motors. I'm kicking around the idea of going independent myself. But with no factory affiliations. I'm also not going to try to take the dealer new boat business, but there seems to be a huge hole for servicing motors built in the 70s and 80s that a lot of dealers won't touch. Service calls is another major request that many dealers won't touch. Indepents live on that stuff!

 

[dsrchamp04]

Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

my mechanic has been working on old mercs since 1960..thats usually before most of the techs out there were born...lucky me!!

 

[DHPMARINE]

Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

Very interesting post.In recent years I've come to the conclusion that my shop,at $65/hr is not helping boaters with electric shift outboards,stringer drives,as well as the older Mercs.I'm not saying they are junk.They're not.But if I spend 3 hours going thru the carbs on a tower of power,and now it needs water pump work,I end up charging more the the motor is worth,and I won't let myself do that to people.<br /><br />DHP

 

[Chinewalker]

Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

Clams,<br /> Your description of what a true Mercaholic Mech should be able to do reminds me a lot of myself! Not only do I know how to spell Kiekhaefer, but in the early 1990s I even had Charlie Strang over for dinner one August evening! Got picture somewhere of Charlie and his wife, Ann, sitting on our front porch, enjoying the River! <br /> One a related note, back in my younger days when I was likely to be out and about in the evenings, one of my favorite watering holes had an old Kiekhaefer Mercury lit dealer sign behind the bar. At some point during the evening I would always give a nod and silent toast to Elmer Carl...<br />- Scott

 

[Scali]

Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

If we think it's getting hard to find a good mechanic now to work on older carb Mercs nowadays just wait till a couple years when the new emission laws are in effect & they gradually get faded out

 

[Laddies]

Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

More shops don't work on older Mercurys, not because they are worried about having to charge the customers to much money, but because of their inabilty to repair them properly. Thats the same reason the johnie rude shops use to bad mouth them--bob

 

[Chinewalker]

Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

Hey DSR Champ! Love the Avatar! I raced CSR for a number of years in the NorthEast. I never had the resources or time to really do the circuit and the nationals, but had a lot of fun at the five or six races a year I did make... Hope to get back into it at some point...<br />- Scott

 

[NMplayer]

Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

hey, haven't been around much in a while, but this thread strikes a chord with me. I have a '72, 500 that would be in the junk pile if it wasn't for this forum. It seems to me that the answer is either like you guys said, find a mechanic who knows something about old motors, or do like I did with the help of folks here. You have to become an expert on your particular motor. Learn it and work on it yourself. If you're patient, the iformation is out there and there are a lot of folks who can help you.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

hello<br /> I agree with DHPmarine. a motor that has a market value of 700 in pristine running condition(deduct for saltwater use) is not worth me repairing most the time.I will do occasional work on them for close friends. however when the divider plate blows a hole through it or it burns a piston I wont touch it.<br /> as far as laddies' comments there is noting on an old merc I have not fixed. in my area they all corroded away years ago. I had to make the last tools to remove the carrier and pump cap on an old mk55. parts for some are almost impossible to get. the back breaker a few years ago came when I replaced a trigger,wiring harness and switchbox, rebuilt the carbs and fuel pump then got stuck with a 400 dollar motor that I told the guy it was a junker. lucky I had most the parts money up front. last I saw of the motor it was slowly sinking in the swamp. they guy owed me almost 1000 dollars and would not pay. I got stuck on a stringer unit the same way in 99.I have an 87 115 yamaha a guy brought in last week. the lower unit has a crack at the carrier nut. it has water in the gear oil. it leaks water from the powerhead adapter area,water is pouring from the tiller arm mount up front, and the shift shaft is almost corroded in to.<br /> but the power head purrs.<br />I did not even give an estimate. just wrote it up and notified him that if he picks it up in the next 2 weeks its free of charge.<br /> comes a point where the repairs exceed the cost. not a matter of can I fix it, there aint much broke that without copious amounts of cash I cant fix. however its not worth it sometimes.<br /> especially when in todays market if I change the plugs its almost considered an overhaul and they expect a lifetime warrenty on the rest of the engine subsystems.

 

[Chinewalker]

Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

DHP/Rodbolt,<br /> Good points from both of you. You're both obviously "in the biz" so to speak, so it makes sense from your side of things. And it appears that you're both able, if the circumstances warrant it, to successfully do the work on an older motor. It's the guys who haven't a clue that drives the rest of us nuts! More often than not, they're parts replacers - not mechanics. <br /> As for worth of the motor, I find that a lot of people in my area are willing to put a lot into an older motor when faced with the prospect of buying a new one at many thousands of dollars. Putting a few hundred into an older motor that may only be "worth" a few hundred still makes sense if you've got a reliable, good running motor when you're done. If the guy gets five good years out of it for those few hundred bucks, he's happy because he hasn't been paying on a bank note over those five years and still had the use of his boat during that time.<br /> Just my 2¢...<br />- Scott

 

[NMplayer]

Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

I see your point Rodbolt, but there's something some of the shops don't seem to understand. When I first started boating I bought the boat, motor and trailer for $400. The old 'rude needed work and a lot of it but the power head was good. When I finally found a shop that would work on it, the mechanic told me up front, "I can fix it but it will cost you about $1200 which is $800 more than it was worth" I told him that if he was relatively sure (nothing is absolute) that I could get a few years out of it if I took good care of it (no garuntees) that I would spend that and more on it. Either that, or I would buy another motor from him if he had a used one that was any good in that price range. Of course, he didn't have one in that price range. I have never seen a shop that did.<br /><br />Why? Because I don't have thousands of dollars to buy a new or even slightly used motor. To me anyway, it would make sense to pay you what you wanted work on a scorched cylinder.<br /><br />The real question in my mind, is the motor to the point that the cost of repairing it would be close to the price of a good replacement

 

[Clams Canino]

Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

Originally posted by Chinewalker:<br /> <br /> in the early 1990s I even had Charlie Strang over for dinner one August evening! Got picture somewhere of Charlie and his wife, Ann, sitting on our front porch, enjoying the River! <br />

Scott, did I mention that I hate you?<br /><br />-W (the extremely jealous)<br /><br />PS: I hate you even more for complimenting someone else's avatar while mine remains missing.

 

[Clams Canino]

Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

I'm with Scott on this one DHP/Rodbolt. I don't see it just as fair market value, I see it also balancing against replacement value. I have people spend $1k to $1500 a LOT to get a Tower back in the game. From my perspective anything from the Merc 1000 up to the 1500 will respectably power your "average" family runnabout, most of which want a min of 90hp at the propshaft. When you price out the 90-125 hp outboards, overhauling a Tower looks better and better. And that's even before you factor in power/weight ratio, those silly 2+2's, or bulky four-strokes. <br /><br />I do agree that some of the salt-water blocks are too far gone. That's where Ebay is a God-send for finding cheap replacement blocks and cranks, the rest can be dealt with via aftermarket or used parts if need be. And ya, I've wasted many an afternoon heli-coiling inner exhaust plate bolts to save an otherwise good block. My record was 15 out of 23 broken. <br /><br />-W <br /><br />

Originally posted by Chinewalker:<br /> DHP/Rodbolt,<br /> Good points from both of you. You're both obviously "in the biz" so to speak, so it makes sense from your side of things. And it appears that you're both able, if the circumstances warrant it, to successfully do the work on an older motor. It's the guys who haven't a clue that drives the rest of us nuts! More often than not, they're parts replacers - not mechanics. <br /> As for worth of the motor, I find that a lot of people in my area are willing to put a lot into an older motor when faced with the prospect of buying a new one at many thousands of dollars. Putting a few hundred into an older motor that may only be "worth" a few hundred still makes sense if you've got a reliable, good running motor when you're done. If the guy gets five good years out of it for those few hundred bucks, he's happy because he hasn't been paying on a bank note over those five years and still had the use of his boat during that time.<br /> Just my 2¢...<br />- Scott

 

[rodbolt]

Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

Clams<br /> that is why I stay out of most tower of power posts. you have that covered . however I cut my teeth on them. in texas around the ft worth area there are thousands of them. more in the midwest. also a tremendous amount of chyslers and elgins and scott attwaters. but at 75 an hour its not worth my time anymore. I have a flat rate of one hour per helicoil. that mostly pays for my time,coils,kits and drill bits. not to mention my drill fixtures and the drill. cant drill striaght with a worn out drill.<br /> I have worked in auto and marine delerships from vallejo CA to kitty hawk NC. been about a bit. took almost 6 years as an FC in the navy and 6 years programming and setting up CNC equipment in cleburne TX. but here in the salt pond them old mercs,suzukis and jonnyrudes,yamahas just dont come apart.<br /> but I do have a deal for ya. I have a 17ft or so winner with a 115( I think, may be a 110) that ran like a clock until a few years ago. the customer lived in charlotte NC. he had a deal with me to store his boat. in 1996 I replaced the gearcase and rebuilt the fuel system. his last payment on the storage was about 98. I recieved a post card from him from spain in about 2000. the boat is still sitting outback.<br /> its gotta go<br /> the trailer aint much anymore.<br /> it does have power trim.<br /> I have not done anything to it since about 99<br />make me an offer

 

[Laddies]

Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

Geez Rodbolt I did not say all shops, I did not mean to strike a nerve. I give estimates and stick by them, that gives the customer a chance to decide if it's worth fixing. I have a read alot of your replies and for the most part respect them and thought this forum was about opinions and expressed something that we all know happens all the time. I have been in this business for 45 year and have seen it all and was some what disappointed by your responce--Bob

 

[rodbolt]

Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

laddiesservice.<br /> hello<br /> ya did not strike a nerve <br /> sorry if my poor elocution led ya to believe it. your posts have been most helpful on this forum.<br /> my difference is an area one. in my area you wont believe how hard it is tojust dissasemble a 10 year old motor. much less fix it.<br /> sometimes I have to look at the overall condition of the entire power plant and make a call. <br /> over the years I have learened mostly how to tell if I can do a reasonable repair of if the package is just over it.<br /> I base my reputation not on what it costs but will the repair costs justify it.<br /> most my contract work with various dealerships is done at 45 per hour. the customers I have had for some years is at 65 per hour. those that approach me at the marinas asking for side work or spare time work get billed at 150 per hour. its a matter oif ethics.<br /> I am on a medical retirement from the navy with some bone and joint problems. I dont cut the dealers around here at all. all of them know it. so when they are very busy,have a problem that their techs cant solve or need mobile work they call me. in response they allow me to go to their schools. works ok.<br /> I give estimates as well. however sometimes I tell them that this is just an estimate and give them a price of 75 or so an hour for each and every broken bolt. I dont mind sticking with an estimate but with a 10 year old saltwater motor you sometimes find 10 hours into the project its not a viable project. what do YOU do then?

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

Up until the 80's we would take them in for service regardless of the year. But, since 85 we have been a lot more picky. If guy brings in a 15 year old anything because its " got a little miss", you can bet that it needs a carb job, water pump and it's got low compression on one or more cylinders. The cost of the repair is guaranteed to exceed the value of the engine. While I understand the love affair that some have for their old clunker's, from a realistic perspective....they are junk. Parts and labor costs are based on today's prices. With starters that cost $300.00, waterpumps that are over $100.00 and lower units for $2000.00 or more, most coastal authorized dealers simply can not afford to get trapped into an older engine. That's where "Billy Bob's Boatyard of Boating Bargains" has his niche. The place may be a little cluttered, they probably are drinking beer during lunch and you can bet that if you pay in cash you have to ask for a receipt. But those are the places that have the low overhead. Those are the ones who can spend three hours at $35.00 per hour replacing a water pump that( on a new engine) only takes 30 minutes to replace. At what we charge, $100.00 per hour, we would get shot trying to hand people $400.00 waterpump bills( including parts).